#183 A Deep Dive into the Growing, White, Christian Discomfort: Insights from a Longtime Listener

Are we allowed to talk about marginalization and white Christians in the same breath? Is that really a thing? Do white-American Christians feel the pressure of the growing racial tension between ethnic subcultures in the country? Are they allowed to ask questions about it? Are Daren and Brandon, as black men, allowed to care? 

Instead of asking these questions to the culture, the Christian ought to turn to scripture and the answers would be obvious. Though Daren and Brandon may be called uncle toms, coons and the other things...we're not under constant threat of being labeled a racist - a tension our white brothers and sisters are constantly experiencing.

 This is UNDOUBETLDY a contentious conversation and we don't care. We brought on an OG listener, Alissa Hollander, who is a sister in Christ and is becoming a good friend to discuss the growing difficulties of being a white-American who loves the Lord...and isn't racist. 

Transcript

Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to black and Blonde. Darren's not here right now, but he will be here. He will be here just running a little late. Got daddy duty. And his son is, I think, in student ministry one that I used to actually pastor before moving here to Baltimore and abandoning all those children. I. But guys, we have a great episode for you and it's a long time. It's been a joy for these past I want to say, Oh my gosh, what is this 2025? Wow. Five years. Five years of doing this podcast. And the encouragements that have come as a result, if you are, if you're OG listener, then you remember the beginning of this podcast and probably at maybe year 2 we had a time of some just reflection and repentance and like recognizing that, hey, we, we had a lot. Anger in our heart in the very beginning. Of this podcast. Some warranted arguments and still logical arguments, but a lot of. Anger. And through this time, and as we've been settling into the calling that we knew the Lord had on us with this podcast. There's been a deep amount of encouragement that have come from listeners. There have been a deep amount of encouragement from relationships that we've built through listeners and through doing this podcast and guests and things like that. And this episode is one of the culminations of that reality. And before I jump into our guest, who was a long time listener sister in Christ, I want to play a clip. A clip. And it's a clip that in essence, points to why this podcast exists. Darren and I, we've told our story, you're going to hear mine from a ministerial standpoint soon in an episode. Our story together is kind of being these black. Christians, Christians in essence, but black highlighted because of the time period that we were in, maybe 2016 to 20. What was that? I mean up till now, to be honest with you, but we were out living. DC and the ideologies around there specifically tied to skin color were not favorable for. For us, we being raised by parents who knew the Lord, loved him and raised us in a knowledge of the Lord, but also with conservative values, made us anomalies. Apparently, when there are many Americans who are like this. It just seems as par for the course to be raised Christian and you have conservative values.

But.

The narrative of the day was that people were writing books and writing blogs about black Americans. And so where we were, people were reading those books and those blogs and so they were coming to us with what they thought was information that they had in the bag and therefore never had to ask us any questions. And obviously that made a lot of confusion. Conf. Interactions. And so this podcast exists because we were sick of the narrative of unity. Which was actually waging war on the unity we already share in Christ in the church. It was causing division in the name of unity that it was rearranging things like definitions for racism and all that stuff in order to weaponize racism. To leverage racism, it was pointing to atrocities in the past and not so that we could learn from them and grow from them so that we could actually learn how to leverage it on our own, into our own benefit. People wanted to leverage. Isolation and ostracization and leverage ethnic exaltation in order to leverage that against. Labor and justify their own hatred. So we look at slavery in the. We blame all white people and then that justifies the hatred brewing in our own hearts toward our neighbor. And we were sick of it. And so we decided to start this podcast to offer up our thoughts with a gospel centered in biblical lens so that people would know that. Does not rule today, and the weapons of our warfare is believers. Tear those strongholds down. And this episode is a fruit of that. So before I jump into that, I want to play this clip. That really accentuates. I think the way a lot of our brothers and sisters have felt as of late. To say the past decade, maybe to be kind and it's a. I just stumbled across from. I can't still can't remember the name of the show. It's not the. So if you're listening and you talk about a show with a bunch of women and it's not the view. What show is it? Tell me. Comment in the app that you're listening to and let me know, but let's listen to this clip.

So I really would like to know because I've been knowing you for years, so I've been here and I've never seen anything come out of you other than. If I don't know, I'm willing to learn if it comes off a certain way, I stand corrected. The only thing I say. What would you say to people? Who may feel that you while you're standing by your friend? It appears that you give validation or safe haven to something that he has uttered that is racist even even if you don't agree. Am I? I saying it right. OK, I say.

I don't know what he's I think that's.

Is it?

Racist. I'm not. I'm not trying to slide out of this one, right. Don't. Tell me, what has he uttered? Racist. I I feel even like I'm about to be put in the electric chair because I have a friend who many people think is a racist. That makes me a racist. And for me, at 68 years of age to have to turn around and say I ain't racist. What's going to do with me? How can I be racist about anybody? How can I be racist about anybody or anything in my life? How can I?

Be right.

Roblox and I think we should stop this.

You have more topics, so don't go away.

I will ask you again, Cheryl. I've been asking you during the break. I am asking you. This is the situation you tell me where you have heard him say educate me. Me, when you have heard him say racist things. Educate me. Tell me.

Not the exact words of racism, it's the implication and the reaction to it, to not want to address that because she is a black woman and to try to dismiss it or to make it seem less than what it is. That's what makes it racist. But but right. Now I'm talking to a woman who I believe is my friend and I don't want anybody here to, to. Watch this and say that we're attacking you for being racist and that and for that, if I articulated.

Today I think that it's already showed.

But.

So before I give some context on that clip, I want to introduce our guest who is a OG black and blurred listener, a sister in Christ. You were one of the first encouragers in doing this podcast 'cause. When we started it, man, people were mad at us and just getting comments and DMS on Instagram of encouragement that you're listening and things like that and how it's been encouraging is helped spur us on. Towards continuing on in this. So I want you to, I want everybody to welcome Alyssa to the podcast. Welcome to Black and blurd.

Hey, thanks for having. This is so fun to be on here, especially considering how long I have followed you guys. And now, I mean, I never would have thought I will be on the podcast with you sometime. So it's just crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And here we are. Here we are. We I mean that's something we always say, something that we wanted to do in this podcast was to make it a living room, right? The conversations that were not being had in our spaces and they weren't being had in the way that we would like to have them with genuine pure heartedness listening patience they were being. Had in a passive aggressive, very manufactured way that was silencing a lot of different voices. And we wanted our podcast to be the antithesis of that in a way that we think that the Christian should also provide for their neighbor, that space to be able to have these hard conversations. And so we always wanted to be able to have our ear to the ground with those who are listening to the podcast and say, hey, why don't you? On with us and talk. And so we're glad. We're glad to have you on. Glad to have you on.

Yeah. Well, I'm super glad to be here. So thanks for having me.

Absolutely. Now you're you are familiar with that clip, yes.

Yeah, looking forward to.

Have you seen that before?

A little bit. I've seen it one time before.

So for those who are listening, that was Sharon Osbourne. Ozzy Osbourne's wife, who was a part of the cast of this show the talk.

****.

Is that right that I just?

Oh, is that what it was? OK.

Make that up.

I might have just made that up. I might have just made that up. I don't.

You know why it works?

But yeah. So and she was speaking with. Cheryl Underwood or Sharon Underwood is that Cheryl Underwood? I forget. I'm obviously I just saw this clip and I. It and used it but. The context is apparently Pierce Morgan had an interview with Meghan Markle, and I don't know the comment he made, but their conclusion is that it was racist. And Piers Morgan was being dragged through the mud for being racist. And he happens to be a friend. Of Sharon Osborne. Reaching out to her friend said. I'm still with you. I love you and I'm standing with you here. And so because she did that and you know that, you know, being racist, if you're a white, are like the cooties. You can catch it really quickly. You can catch it quick.

OK.

She had she she woke up that day not knowing she had to defend her personhood on that show. There she was. And I think what we were seeing in that clip was not only the fact that she had to defend against the accusation that she's racist. But she had to defend against it coming from her friends.

Right.

And the assumption is I wish that in the same way that I speaking as Sharon stood up for my friend, that you guys would recollect the person, you know that I am and therefore do away with this need. To have to defend against being racist, and I think you can hear that frustrated. I'll use that clip because I think that that is something that resonates with a lot of brothers and sisters of mine and you included where at any point you can find yourself having to defend against being racist because. Whether or not people want to admit it. The narrative has shifted in the country about what it means to be a white American. I think underneath the surface for some minorities, that's always been the case, but now it's made mainstream. It's made academia where they can have all this made-up language, even about it. And now it's being promulgated in schooling. And you know, all this stuff and very much so in our pulpits.

Yeah, yeah.

It's being promulgated.

Absolutely.

And I think that that is something you may have felt, but without me just putting words in your mouth, let me. What drew? To this podcast and kept you.

Oh, that's a great question. You know, I wish I could remember exactly how I came to find your. Initially I've been racking my brain trying to remember and it may just be through another mutual. Podcaster that I stumbled upon you guys, but I recall listening and just being. Kind of surprised, but also found it really refreshing to hear people talking the way that you guys. I mean, like you said earlier, maybe you were a little angry, but also it's kind of like, well, I mean. But you know, can kind of help people be like. What's going on here?

Yeah.

So anyway, yeah, I just started listening and found that you were applying biblical truth. And. We're saying things in a much different. I think it may have been around 2020 that I started listening.

OK.

And just the culture at the time, my husband and I and our kids had lived in St. For a time and St. Is a pretty. Segregated City still, but we didn't find that to be the case as far as our own experience, we were a part of communities that were very racially diverse and they were Christian communities.

Thank you.

And so. I it just was not what I like. I didn't experience. Louis in the way that people often talk about. Louis. And so when we moved back to Michigan, which is where we are now. The the area that we live in is a bit different, not as diverse. And it was just funny how. There were so many conversations that were starting to happen where. Race like you had said, was starting to morph to mean something, or I should say racism was morphing to mean something a little different than I had always understood it to. And then also to be kind of suggested that you are. Either. What's the word? One of the words was white privilege, but that's not the one I'm looking for.

Fragile fragility? White fragility.

White. That's the one where it's like, well, you actually are racist even if you claim you're not. And if you claim you're not, then you most definitely are.

We used to play this game. Lose your train of. But you saying that made me think about something and that's what I saw in like that, that clip with Sharon Osbourne, we used to play this game in middle school. Note the time period middle school where we would randomly approach a classmate and we would say you're mad and they would and they would look at us like we're crazy. No, I'm not yet you are. You're it's basically a gaslighting game. Crazy.

Right.

And then after about two minutes, that person would. I mean it probably a fight that would break out because of the fact that you just gaslit this person and believe in their mad to the point of driving them angry.

Right. Yeah, a little bit where you're just like and I think part of it too.

It seems like that's what it is.

So our genuinely a person who loves people and and wants to love others, and then that's being suggested of you. Kind of like, well, and and this is what I think. A lot of well meaning people do is they're like, well, maybe I am, you know, and they just want to like, I mean, I think people really in some cases want to examine themselves and be like. Am I harboring things that I don't even realize that I'm harboring and kind of go down that path and then you start to say, oh, well, maybe I do. At certain things or certain people. Or maybe I and you just start questioning yourself. Which I think on the one hand is fine like we should. Should examine. But it just got to be really weird around that time and.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't. I've seen that in my. We, the Community I'm in, is very. Culturally, Christian and so people do want to live out biblical values, and that's something that at least here, still in, in, in a lot of circles is considered. A good thing or a social positive. And so there's a lot of attaching. Biblical language to things like. Well, I should be careful how I say that. To considering whether or not you are prejudice or racist, and what those things mean, and they've been, those definitions have been changed a little bit, and so things have gotten a little murky for people, I think.

I mean, when you bring up the self examination piece, I I actually resonate with that.

Yeah.

You know, Darren and I were a part of a church where we were standing firmly against the way that the winds were pushing. I think just literally what Christians are taught to do.

Great.

That's why we grow maturity. Ephesians 4. But we were pushing against it and and at a certain point, personally. It makes you question. It's like literally what you just said. Asking myself, I don't know. I seeing this wrong?

Yeah.

Am I seeing this? So much so, to the point that I yielded and I went to a BLM March. That other leaders in our church were going to and other than and wanted to.

Mm.

Too. And I said OK for the sake of unity in our church, let me go to this.

Yep.

Yeah.

I was disgusted with myself afterwards.

Well, I mean, you say you, I I didn't have the opportunity to go that I didn't like search it out and I was never asked to go. But I bet you there would have been a time that if I had, I would have gone like because to me.

And.

Yeah.

A long time there. I just took. Black Lives Matter at face value, and I like them. Meaning of the words. I didn't understand the organization behind it and what they stood for. And so until I knew that I probably would have been like, well, of course I believe that Black Lives Matter. And I'm happy to go out and, you know, go to a March or whatever, but I just didn't know. Yeah.

How long were you guys in that Saint Louis community?

We were there from 2011 until 2016.

Oh. So it was. I was curious to know. What the make of it make up of it, how it was affected after, you know, the summer of love and all of that time. But you guys weren't around there, I guess to see 'cause you said it was diverse. Was Christian and I was wondering if the 2020 era may have ruffled those feathers a bit.

Well, when was what year did the Mike Brown thing happen? 'cause we were there for that.

Oh yeah, that was before. That's. That was before. It was around then I want to say. Let me see what was Obama he got in a 2008. It was definitely between 2008 and 2016.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Somewhere around there.

Yeah, I don't remember the year either offhand, but but yeah, we were. I want to say 20 minutes from where that happened, where we lived and yeah, there it was crazy.

Wow.

Was a lot going on, but again at the at the time that that was happening. There was just so much chaos going on that you didn't know what was true so.

That's right.

That's right.

I think, at least for myself, and I don't know if this. A function of being conservative or Christian or just my personality. But I kind of tend to. Wait. Like big things happen in our culture or in our country.

Whoa, whoa.

Whoa, wait a second. Are you telling me that you care about the truth, Alyssa? No, no, no. No, no, no, no. Not allowed here. That's not allowed.

Are.

You telling me that you're slow to speak? Do you get this nonsense?

Right, exactly.

You know, when you were saying that I was just thinking in my mind just how. Cunning the enemy is because what happens with those tragedies is that narratives are born, right? Those narratives you have factions of people, and in those factions of people, the enemy, the opposition.

Alright.

Are the individuals who don't blindly pledge allegiance to the narrative.

Right.

So if you're somebody who's unwilling to draw a conclusion, enemy, you're hateful. You're racist. Or Uncle Tom, if you're me.

Yeah.

And if there's anybody who is called to stand above that and speak, what is true in that moment, it's the believer. And if anyone more than the believer, it's. The preach. Sure.

Great.

And unfortunately, during that time, especially in this country, we had a lot of people behind pulpits who were exacerbating the toxins of that narrative. And it left a lot of people feeling isolated. Was your. What was your church like during either of those times, Michael Brown or past when you guys moved? Was it like during the 2020 era in your local gathering? You feel like you had genuine community. Was it interesting? What was that like?

Yeah. So our church in St. Was incredibly small. It was a new plant out of Masters Seminary in.

Yes.

So our pastor had graduated from the seminary there, and he was originally from Saint Louis. And then moved back to. Louis to be the head pastor of this particular church and so. So when we moved there, we started, you know, going to different churches on the weekends to try to figure out where we wanted to go. And initially we kind of avoided going to that church because we were like, it's super small. Had been a part of a new church plant here in Grand Rapids prior. To moving to Saint. And so we were thinking, we just kind of want to be a part of a church that's already well established. So we initially kind of avoided going there, but then after a few different times or weekends of visiting other. Churches. We technically could. To this church from our house. Maybe we should go.

Local.

Say that again.

I said that's quite local, yeah.

It's quite it's quite the local church, yes. So we ended up going and. There was an outdoor service that day and we met a. I was about to say a bunch, but this was a really small church. We met a couple of people that were our age with kids, our kids age and they were running around playing together and we were like, OK, and you know. We just kept going back and we knew that we agreed theologically with this church, so it was more or less just being willing to be a part of something that was just starting. But that ended up being great because St. Was brand new to US and we didn't have any friends or family there when we moved there. So getting in kind of at the ground floor of a new church and being one of the first families, that was a part of it, was ended up being really nice. So although that was a really small church, we were quite diverse. And I I loved. I thought this is exactly you know, you obviously hear about every tribe, tongue and nation and heaven and it was just like, you know, we. We just had it felt like a family. I mean, there were probably maybe like 50 regular attenders and everybody was there for one another. Served one another and knew what was going on in each other's lives. It genuinely did not feel like there was any division over anything, but especially skin color. Like, I don't know it just that just wasn't a thing.

Yeah.

At least from my. So we, and even when that happened, was Ferguson and everything. Everybody was just, just loved each other. It didn't. Maybe I was not a part of discussions that happens between like the Pastor and other people that people in our church that were struggling, I think that. 'S probably likely, but as far as like our community goes, we were very bonded and I don't know. I just there didn't feel like there was any questioning of loyalty or like where you stood with each other.

Yeah.

It just, I don't know. Thing.

There's have. Had you ever gone to? I mean, does it have to be at your local church or anything? But in general, have you ever gone to any type of like, I don't even want to call it racial reconciliation talk or seminar or whatever thing. With any church at all, I've been to a bunch.

No. Yeah.

Oh my goodness. So many that I'm sick of them. And it's because the conversation now the the grand one I went to was actually in Chicago. Was this big conference. And it was I I'm not. This is not hyperbole at. It was the worst conference I'd ever attended in my entire life. It was like it was like CNN Church Conference.

Huh.

Was ridiculous. The rhetoric that was being spewed. But one common denominator amongst all of the things that I've been to was. Especially in a Christian context. Of these are in. That this reconciliation that we need between one another, which isn't biblical. Or it's not biblical that we can produce that reconciliation. Is the work of. White men and. Doing work to be reconciled to us.

Right, right, right.

And that leaves you. Befuddled and dumbfounded because you literally can't do that.

I.

Right.

Mean what do you? Because I I'm just trying to empathize with individuals here in a healthy way, where it's like I've seen and we're going to look at something later on in, in this episode. But I've seen people. Strive so hard to be absolved of the grand sin of supposed racism. And it breaks my heart when I see them fail and I see how how much it fails. I mean, we've seen clips of groups of white Americans kneeling and asking for forgiveness from black Americans.

Right.

3.

You seen these?

I think I've seen a few AM.

Yeah. I mean, in general, seeing things like that, knowing the narrative, honestly speaking. How does? Stuff make you feel. What do you think about in those moments?

I mean, I probably just kind of think it's silly honestly, because like you had just said, I don't understand how that really does anything for anybody. Know it's like OK, say that. That person gets down in meals or whatever and asks for forgiveness. Then what? Like. So how? How did that change anything from either person's? Really, you just go back to your normal life and like nothing has changed you. I'm like, what does that actually accomplishing, I guess?

It's.

So I would see it as being kind of showy like. You're just kind of doing that. To show how virtuous you are or how I.

Because obviously you got a recording you got. You definitely got a record it.

Don't know like.

You do it right? Yeah, exactly.

It's like well. It just feels very fresh show and not genuine, I guess. And in my own personal experience, having friendships with people who are not the same skin colour is me. That would never be something that that person would would want or would think would be appropriate, and our friendship is based on genuinely caring about each like. I just did seem so outside of what would happen in a normal friendship or normal relationship that it seems so forced and just bizarre to me, I guess.

So you know this this narrative has been. Rearing a very ugly head and that head has been growing and it's been growing with the help of a lot of churches and preachers and supposed Christians. Where it's the love of Christ to recognize the sins of past generations, and then also, you know, blah blah blah nonsense. And and. Of that, there are a lot of. Things that have been. I don't even know. I guess just. What's the word I'm looking for?

What?

I've been assigned to the category of whiteness. Either passive aggressively or aggressive aggressively.

Delete previous message.

Meanwhile, these things are rooted in Christian convictions, right? You and I have talked a bunch and you have a deep Christian conviction for life. It drives. You do do in. That area can you describe a little bit what it's been like to be a wife, mother who loves life because of your love for Christ?

Mm.

Then have that be weaponized against you as just a form of your whiteness and colonialist mindset.

Yeah, I mean so. I think as far as any Christian who is really. Whose worldview is based on a biblical understanding. Would recognize that it's the image of God in every human being that we should respect and love and care for. Which obviously does play into my work in a pro-life ministry. But in addition to that, if that's if that's the lens. You're seeing people through then? How can you? It's it's just foundational. It's like. In some ways, I think about how I'd like everybody to just, like, make an announcement to the world and be like, hey, everybody wants unity. And we all are trying and scrambling and like clawing it, trying to figure out different ways to find unity. When at the end of the day, how about we try what God has said and what God has prescribed? And that he created every human being as a reflection of. Him and that it's on that basis that we respect human life in every person, no matter who they are, how developed they are, if they have a disability. If they look different than you, if they speak a different language than you. That's that's like the bedrock of. The only way that anyone is ever going to get that love and unity that they desire. Now, obviously sin still exists in Mars the world. But if your worldview and your conviction is. That every person is made in God's image and you love God. Then, even if you do screw up you will, you know, repent to God and if needed, to a fellow human being for. Something that you've done wrong, so it's just.

Yes.

I don't. I guess I always just want to look. To. What is the foundation that everything else is built on? So for me that makes. Not only for being pro-life, but that also makes sense for loving and caring for each human being that I come into contact with in my life now. Some people are easier to love than others. Obviously, but we're also called to love the ones that we don't find so lovely. And so yes, it's not that it's not a struggle and it's not that. I that I do it perfectly or even well sometimes. But my foundation and what I go back to is that. Every person is made to reflect our creator and and not only that, but you know, God sent his son to die on the cross for each one of us. Us. And if he's willing to make that sacrifice for people who are obviously. Some of the worst sinners ever. Then how could I look at people with hatred or disdain or, you know, whatever the case may be? I think that's that's where it all kind of originates for me.

Yeah.

But then the second part of your question.

What was?

The second part of your question again.

I mean, I think you answered it all. It's like, I mean 'cause it's, it's the, it's about. How do you? How would you reconcile the fact that you have these Christian convictions that are now being, I guess, condescended to just an aspect of your, quote, UN quote, whiteness? And I think your answer is pretty profound because what we're seeing today.

Yeah, yeah.

Is an even further condescension, and saying that, oh, you're pro-life. But that's only for babies inside the womb, but you need to care for everybody outside the womb. But what you just displayed is that that's what the Christian worldview demands.

Yeah, it is Christian method, yeah.

That's at the heart of being a pro-life individual.

Right. Yeah. I would say the. One of the things that's been the most frustrating being somebody and I've I've been pro-life for far longer than working for this ministry that I work for, but. Being pro-life and hearing people say things like. Well, you. Care about babies when they're in the womb, but you don't care about people or you don't care about those children after they're born is just is such a low blow.

I'm like.

Heavy like working in a pro-life space. I'm like the people that we are partnering with are running pregnancy care centers and other ministries and orphan care and it's like. I mean, how silly of a how silly of a claim is that?

And to juxtapose that with the fact that you don't hear an outcry from those individuals regarding the grotesque amount of child murder that happens in this world and let alone in our country.

Right.

You hear no outcry, but you only hear a rebuttal to those who want to save children. Weird.

It's wild. I mean the logic in a lot of cases of the claims and the things that you see on social media are. Ridiculous. Honestly, it's like. Please, you haven't thought that through at?

All.

Like I don't know, and and deciding which things to interact with sometimes is really hard 'cause I'm just. I. Mean. I feel like if you would have thought. That. Few more steps down the road you might have been like, wait, but I don't know people.

That could be.

A commercial for social media social media. Think nothing through.

100%.

Yeah.

That that's exactly what it is. Exactly what it is.

I think you have this big gotcha moment and it's like what? So yeah that.

Yeah. And it and it attacks convictions. The big thing? Right, so for someone. Where I can? I mean, maybe you you have a time where you can remember when you had, you felt like you had to defend your desire to protect children from it being recognized as just some.

Oh yeah.

Ethnic heritage of Americanity or whatever, you know. What is their time? You remember?

A time I remember needing to.

Yeah. This. Yeah, like you.

Say that again.

You having to defend your desire to protect children because of somebody who has whatever frivolous rebuttal to your desire to protect children and you trying to get them to see why this is actually a good thing. And why you opposing it is a bad thing.

Yeah, I mean regularly. Honestly, and it doesn't really happen in person very often, which I think is funny because. People know that I work at for a pro-life ministry, and so it's funny how people are. So like quote, courageous or bold when it comes to what they'll say on social media. Maybe hoping you'll see it or not. Caring that you see it or whatever. And then. There's definitely times where I'm like, I've got to say something to this cause it's so absurd. I don't always take the bait and it's not. I guess what I'll say is when I do decide to engage with somebody and all of my social media accounts are set to. So it's not like I'm I don't have a lot of people that I don't know in real life or I don't think I have any. So the people that I see post this are friends or at the very least acquaintances.

And.

So when I decide I want to engage, it's. With the goal hopefully of showing them a different perspective and. Not trying to insult them because I also understand what it's like to hold an opinion that I later I'm like, oh, that was really silly that I thought that, you know, so not trying to shame anybody or make anybody feel. Guilty or bad but. I think I have this part of my. Is that it could be a flaw in some cases. Is I kind of tend to think that anyone can be reasoned with and.

Close.

That I'm gonna try so.

That that can definitely give you an edge up in optimism. I think a lot of people could use that in a lot of different ways.

Yeah. So I just. If somebody shuts me down, that's. But I'm I'm OK with saying I like to, like, have conversations and start a conversation with somebody and. I really try not to get like heated or overly emotional in a conversation because you know that's that's the fastest thing to shut it down. So trying to understand where a person is coming from, or at least you know. Show respect in a conversation, whether it is one-on-one. For or I should say in person or over like a social media platform. I want to kind of like draw them in and get the conversation going and try to understand where they're coming from and then offer. Another way of looking at it and and sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't, so.

Yeah.

You know, you just, you do what you can and you try to offer. Not only logic, but biblical reasoning, but oftentimes you know if it's somebody that you're talking to who's not a Christian. You know. You have to start at a different spot. So and actually I don't know that I've told you this, but I was part of a interview of women that was a panel of women that was interviewed on MSNBC for when the Dobbs decision came down.

Really.

Yeah, yeah. So one of my friends. She knew another woman who had been interviewed by this reporter. Name is Dasha burns. For something that had to do with the first time that President Trump was elected. And so this reporter reached back out to that same girl and said, hey, I'm coming back to Grand Rapids when the Dobbs decision is. Released or? Would you be willing to be a part of a panel of women that discuss, you know? What the decision will mean or whatever, and so. That person said yes, and then she talked to my. And then they literally were like, well, we need somebody who's pro-life.

They had no one. Wow.

We don't know anybody.

So so my friend reached out to me and and it's. She was like she was kind of middle of the road. She was neither. Here she would have said she was neither fully to one side or the other, and so she was like. But I know that that you're strongly pro-life. So I was wondering if you would be willing to come on MSNBC and I was like. I don't know that I want to step into the lion's den. So to make a Long story short, I ended up saying that I would talk to the reporter on the phone and just like feel it out or whatever. And when I spoke to her and and her producer on the phone, I honestly feel like just that phone call.

OK.

Alone was. Like orchestrated by God, I mean obviously, but like. He gave me the words to say in those moments and I was able to articulate it in a. You know how some days you feel like your brains really firing well and you're like you can find the words and all of that, and then most days, at least for me, I'm like. I can't think of what I'm trying to say that particular time on the phone with that reporter and her producer, I was like it was. It was God 'cause. I was able to just articulate things really well and. Make a super strong case. They were like, whoa. OK. We would love to have you come on. I was like well. Well. I don't. And I started to like him and ha about it, cuz. I'm like, you're gonna make me look. I know you're gonna make me look like I'm either a fool or like Public Enemy number one, you know? And Dasha was like. I promise. I promise we won't, like, do that or. And so that was one of those things that I felt like I needed to pray about ultimately decided to go on. We had this panel and a little brewery in Grand Rapids, and like the upstairs area, that wasn't open. All the cameras and the crew up there and everything. The clips of mine that made it on to the air were so bad.

Don't you hate that that happened to me before?

I mean.

I mean, they've honestly, you know, how I I told her that I was afraid I was gonna be made out to be an enemy.

Uh.

No, they basically made me look wishy washy somehow. Like I kid you not, they edited together. Like a section of a sentence like the beginning of it and a section of a different sentence of the end. Am not kidding. And I was like.

Like.

It just. It was not a great representation, but what they actually heard when we were there, as the panel being interviewed was, was really strong.

Yeah.

I just had to chalk it up to. Hey, the people in the room heard the truth and. God must have had some reason for that and you know.

Right, they can't unhear. That's what I like to say. They can't unhear it.

Right, for sure. So and a couple of the women that were on the panel that were not. Pro-life. I had one of them say something to me afterward about how I had given her something to think about, and that she had never really thought about it that way before. I was like, OK well.

Well, praise God for that if you if you can find that you got to send it to me.

You never know.

I know. I mean, honestly, the clips that made it. None of me were so poor.

I trust me. I've been through that fire before.

And.

Been with CNN. Was in. Angering.

And nothing else. They wouldn't, of course. Give me the footage like I asked for it. And they didn't give me anything.

I've been through that. Yeah.

Anything that you could find like I think you could probably Google it and find it but. Anything that it? I mean, it's not good.

So now Darren with us, and Alyssa just finished telling us a story about how MSNBC gave her the old shake and bake. However, to God be the glory, because they all heard the truth in person, even if they spliced it to some nonsensical thing. On TV, I was just telling you, you know Darren Darren remembers. Were at a church where CNN wanted to. Do a story on us. And I knew from the jump that I didn't do. This was just like a a BLM March type of thing, I told. I told Alyssa about the BLM March. We went to in the name of Unity. And so I did not want to do. But once again, you know, I prayed with my wife and. And she's like, you know, at the end of the day, just tell the truth and kind of like what you what you just highlighted and they'll do what they want to do.

Great.

And it will ultimately wasn't my decision. Was an associate pastor. At this church plant, so. Yeah, they did the story. Asked me. They were in my house for about four hours. And I think I had about 15 seconds.

Yeah, sounds about right.

Worth and and and they lied. They.

Mm.

So one of the things was we were housing a brother of ours who was a refugee from.

Sudan.

And they kept asking me 'cause. This is during the the first anti Trump. So this is just a hit piece on Trump, and they were using our churches pawns. Why I didn't want to do?

Yeah.

I didn't be a part of that. However, in the name of Christian love, they wanted to know why our church was housing refugees and things like that, and and they kept referring to. Mohammed, who was sitting right there with me as a refugee, a refugee, and I kept correcting them, saying, hey, this is a man.

Around.

Mm.

And in my eyes after that or before that, he's a brother in Christ.

Right.

He is our. He is living in our house because he is our brother in Christ who needs a place to live.

Right.

And so that's what Christians. I didn't set out to house a refugee. It just so happens that he's a refugee, but I didn't set out to do that. So naturally, I didn't get a lot of air time.

Yeah, yeah.

And.

Well, same thing.

I didn't get a lot so.

Hmm.

Now I. You about this before I told you about a racial reconciliation? Kind of. Group I led seminar at a church that I led as a matter of fact, I used the reconciled curriculum from Monique Desson.

Yeah.

We we were actually she we were able to read through that as they were building it and sign off on and offer insight and so. That that, I just think that every church, if they don't know what to use, they should get their book walking immunity and use that curriculum. I genuinely believe that, so I use that and something that I wanted to highlight in going through that time with Members at our church. Was this very passive bullying atmosphere that exists? Even in our churches where just like what we just saw from Sharon Osborne, that at any moment you can find yourself tripping and falling into racism. That you can inadvertently be racist, which is not a thing.

Right.

And so kind of to like dissipate that reality. I started the entire time asking one question to everybody. What do you find beautiful about your ethnic heritage? Obviously. The most discomfort came at the hands of White brothers and sisters. And that's just a piece of evidence of this very thick, passive bullying culture that we've built even in our churches. Alyssa, I want to ask you the same question. What is something you find beautiful about your ethnic heritage?

I mean, that's a super hard question because. I don't even fully know my ethnic. That. So it makes it like I've never had a strong identification with. Like, I've been told that maybe we. Are a little bit French. Little bit English. I might have maybe some American or Native American somewhere back in. Don't know. So for me, I've never. Really had any kind of. I don't know. Don't. I don't think like that even.

Why do you think that is?

Because I'm a mutt. And I and I, just like I don't. I've got nothing to grab onto. I guess, like I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The the most that I could like compare it to is so my husbands family is Dutch and so they have some like my my father-in-law actually came to the United States on a boat from the Netherlands when he was like 5.

Why?

Wow.

So you know they have a much stronger connection right to the language and the culture and whatever, but even then it's not that big of a deal to that. Like, I don't know, they'll make jokes about it or they have. Words that they'll use for certain things that are Dutch words that then they'll explain to you what they mean. Or a couple of different types of food maybe. But beyond that, there's no real. I don't know. It's not. It's not a big deal. Don't know.

I think it's an important question and it's not an important question because people need to know, like we don't know. Mean we we're in the same boat as you. Like we don't. I mean, thank God for our children. Now has boys. I have boys because we were the. Smith. We want we want the last line, right?

That's.

So we've got a bunch of boys now to carry on the name, but. The question. The question itself in my mind wages war against the idea that people exist as either black or white or brown. That the Lord in his sovereignty created all of these different groups of ethnicities, ethnos where we get nations from the Bible, and that there are aspects of these. Specific cultures. That obviously are rooted in sin, but there are aspects of it that point to his glory. His glory.

Mm.

That we can actually share in, in, in, in, in find, beautiful in diversity. That's why when you're in a diverse groups and you have all these different patterns and colors and things like that that come together, it points to his glory.

Yeah.

And I think that we do a a huge disservice. To his creation when we will that down into black and white. And even more so Black is is allowed to be a.

Right.

Bit diverse. I can find out what you know.

Trump.

Tribes in Africa, I guess. You know, maybe if that's the. I mean, I don't. We might have some other things in our family too if we looked it up.

Right.

I just don't give the government my saliva. That's a tin foil episode, however.

I.

Wanted to do like one of. What is it like 23andMe or whatever?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

But I was like.

Yeah, like what y'all be doing with my spit man? But but. What was I about to say? Oh yeah, I mean, but at the end of the day. There are aspects of cultural differences that will inevitably point to his glory, and I am. I don't see myself as a black man. If I was able to know about all the things. Then that would contribute to. The furthest back we can go is my great grandfather, my namesake, who I'm named after, who my oldest son is named after, whose family is from the West Indies. That's as. That's as much as I can go, however.

Mm.

That's still my fleshly identity.

Right. It's cool to know that. Of stuff. And like if I could find out without giving the government.

Yeah, I know, I.

Act.

Let me know if you find out.

And then I would maybe do it, but in, but really at the end of the day, it's not something that keeps me up at night that I'm like, oh, I have to know this about myself.

Right.

So I don't know, it's just.

Now that that, that's a great point cause what where we find ourselves today is people have reversed course. I'm Speaking of Christians, where they have exalted their ethnic identity.

Yeah.

They've exalted as the premier and primary identity.

Right.

So therefore this is not a conversation among. This is a conversation amongst well, Once Upon a time, black and white, but now it's oppressed and oppressor, right? It feel to be an oppressor. In this conversation. There listen.

I'll be doing most of the talking now.

Move.

OK, so I want people to hear some of these however much you want to dive deep into them. In. World is this 2025. Let's go.

What last?

Six years, maybe. Conversations have just gotten so off course amongst friends and family, I mean.

Right.

I know marriages that have ended multiple.

Yeah.

Biracial marriages or biafnic marriages that have ended.

Cool.

Mm.

Be over this thing. Have you found yourself in contentious conversations over this? You know, you find yourself defending against being racist. You know, maybe explicitly somebody believes you're racist. You obviously align with this podcast, so I'm assuming your voting is in alignment with this podcast, so I'm sure that that. I mean we we get thrown under the bus because of that. Imagine I mean. You're at the bottom of the totem.

Yeah.

Pole because you're white.

You can't be white and vote for Trump.

Yup. Yup.

You know, we're just misguided. Alyssa, you're racist. What is it like? What is that bin like in those conversations? Having to defend against doing something that we've been doing in this country since its inception?

Yes, I'm glad we have.

Thank you now.

Coding.

Right. Well, I think for myself. Thing that's always been really. The biggest. Like my, I wouldn't say I'm a single single issue voter, but I definitely rank issues, right? So my top issue has always been abortion and. Wanting to vote for people who. Don't think it's OK to kill innocent human life, and to me, it's so. It's wild to think that that wouldn't be something that is a top consideration for people. And you know, I've heard people try to make the case that, you know, I I don't believe the president is going to make that big of a difference when it comes to that issue or whatever. And we can have those discussions which frankly I think over the last you know. You know, 10 years we've noticed that the President does have some pretty big impact on that particular topic. But I've just, I've. That's always been a main issue for me. It's it's moral. And so I've always voted that. Now, like I said, it's it's not a single issue. Also, very much in favor of traditional marriage. And now that we have the whole transgender issue. Clearly I'm not in favor of that, so. There's a there's plenty of issues that align me more with the Republican Party than the Democratic Party. And so. I don't know. To me, I I don't feel like I really need to hide that I'm pretty outspoken about what I believe and so. So I don't really come as a surprise to anyone who knows me that that would be, you know.

A.

A main consideration in the way that I vote. But to answer your question more. Directly, I do have a friend that recently kind of wanted to talk it out with me because she, you know, was pretty sure she knew who I voted for, which she wasn't wrong. And she was. Clearly, very angry that that's the way that I had voted and. Her her main issue. Is racism and so to her. I was. I was casting a vote for a racist. Of course, I don't think that.

Hmm.

So it's like, I mean, OK, if if I were to concede that point then then I would understand where you're coming from. But I don't think that he's actually a racist. Has he said some really ignorant things? Certainly. But that's at the end of the day. There are actual laws and policy being made in favor or against abortion rights or whatever, and there's nothing being discussed that I am aware of.

Well.

Somebody wants to tell me that. Our laws or policy being put into place that are. Advancing racism, you know? So like.

They would say immigration I.

It just doesn't even.

Making illegal immigration illegal, they'd say it's racist.

And and you know, I would disagree with that. It's like I don't know, it doesn't seem. At the very least, I would have thought that this friend would say. That's not the particular issue that I'm putting at the top, or that's not helping inform my decision, but I understand why it does for you. But that I mean that was not at least the way it came across in our conversation, she was. Legitimately. Super ticked off at me for having. Casted that vote and then even said that people who she knew had probably voted for Trump, she would have thought that they would have kept it to themselves. And I was just like, so wait. Hold on. In a free country.

Yeah, yeah.

You think that if people are voting in a way that they might think that you will find offensive, you think that they should hide it and keep it secret. I don't know.

Now here's the thing.

It's just a very odd conversation, so.

Now let's say. So now what we're, you know, we, you and I just talked about. We're, I mean on as far as engaging and getting to know each other and meeting each other. I we're at five years now.

Mm.

So. I'm imagining a world where you initiate contact with me. And you say like? These very passive aggressive things about what I believe kind of, you know, shaming me for what I believe.

Right.

Because you're white, I would easily have an interview on CNN the next day.

Yes, probably.

Oh yeah, I'd make. I'd make it big and they'd record every single word I said. That point. I wouldn't. I I'd get the full hour and.

1/2 at that point.

Point you know. Something that people could probably resonate with in those moments, I mean. What are you like? What is your demeanor? You get this text is a very hard. You're an astute individual. You know where this conversation is going, even if it's passive aggressive. What are you feeling in those moments when that's coming? Are you like, man, I'm about to, you know, let me just respond to this person. Are you thinking? Oh gosh.

How do I?

How do I go about it?

I'm thinking all the things probably. I'm feeling that internal battle of like. Wanting to say things like, I feel like you're putting. Race above Christianity and you know.

Hmm.

Being sisters in Christ. I I want to kind of point those things out because. You know, I I would just like. To be like. Listen, I'm. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from and. I can just sense the the anger. And so at the end of the day, it didn't feel like that was. Going anywhere but for a while I tried to. I mean the way that it unfolded, I just tried to empathize and say that I would be praying about the particular situation that was stressing her out, which was true. Totally genuine. Not trying to like.

You know.

Just say what I think she wanted to hear, but then it was. Further questioning about more specific details and then kind of letting me know how she was having a really hard time. With friends of hers that she knew had voted for. Which is like funny, because I'm like, so you're letting me know this while you are assuming that that's what I did so. Do do we like what? Are. What are we doing here? You know. So anyway, I I honestly tried pretty hard to avoid it because I already knew.

Yeah.

That we weren't going to agree.

Yeah.

So I tried to skirt around it a little bit, but also be genuine in the fact that I was trying to understand where she was coming from and would be praying or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah, what?

But.

Then the accusations that I was just like, well, maybe we could just agree that you don't understand and you think it's pretty crazy that I would vote for Trump, but.

Oh, go ahead. Finish that up.

You claim to be a Christian and claim to care about innocent human life. And I may be equally feel that perplexed about your decision to vote for somebody. So like, maybe we could start there, you know. But that didn't even really get addressed in the next. I don't know. It was just not, not fruitful, and unfortunately like I mean I think we'll be fine, but it's right now we're just kind of.

Yeah.

We've both. A little bit of a step back. 'Cause, that's our thing. You don't.

It seems like the toxicity. Go ahead. What are you saying?

No, I was just gonna say it's hard when you don't see eye to eye, but I think the thing that's really. Interesting about it is we both profess to be Christians and.

Right.

Both are like you know, not just not only professors, but. Try to live our lives. In accordance with God's word and and I know that's true of her. And I think you know, she would know. That's true of me. So it's funny how we can have. Like similar beliefs on foundational truths like she would for sure say that she thinks abortion is wrong and and I would. For sure. That I think racism is wrong and we would agree about traditional marriage and we would agree. Any like doctrinal issue that you could probably throw out there? Would. Yeah. So it's pretty fascinating to me that you can have that. And yet.

Come to the wrong conclusion.

Yeah, like I don't. It's pretty.

I mean, you said it. The the. Idolatry of ethnicity is taking over even if people don't even realize it. And I think that it you. You know that's the case when you feel the tension where if the beginning of the conversation is going where it's like, hey, this is getting a little rocky. And I think that we should have a conversation as sisters in Christ. But you feel like you don't have license to say that because of your skin color.

Right.

Yeah.

You know it's going to get thrown back on you immediately that you can't say, hey, sister, you're, you're elevating a fleshly identity over your spiritual.

Right.

Primary identity in Christ. And you're elevating my fleshly identity over my primary identity in Christ as your sister. It's gonna be like oh. That's something a racist would say.

Right. Well, and I would imagine that she thinks like, I mean, she is 100% convinced that the person who is our President is racist. So.

A lot of people, yeah.

I don't really know what to do with that other than. And we would have to get into like you prove to me that it that he is like and where is that going to go, you know, like it just seems kind of unfruitful and.

Yeah.

And I think she had made it pretty clear that there would be nothing that I could say that would convince her otherwise.

Yeah.

If that's the case, then I mean, I might as well just save my energy, you know, like.

That.

Which is? It's really sad because. I do really care about. I really care about our friendship and.

I don't know.

I don't want there to be any disunity between us and I don't think that there should be, and even if we can't agree on whether Donald Trump is a racist or not, I would like, like I'm still able to have a friendship.

Yeah.

But I kind of feel like maybe. She sort of is, but sort of isn't like.

Yeah.

Like yes, but we can never talk about this again or we can't talk about the and I don't know.

Yeah. And you'll be on egg shells for the rest of your relationship.

Right.

I mean, isn't that so disheartening that? These narratives that are relatively new have dug so deep into the hearts of people that they're tearing down long term relationships.

Right.

That said. That said, so you know you and I were talking about this before in the beginning or before we started recording.

Thank you.

But I think that a lot of people have felt this a lot of white Americans have felt the tension of. Go in and I think going through the process where it's like, hey, I disagree with that. And then going through that self reflective phase where it's like I'm being kind here going through the self reflective phase of saying I don't know is this the case is this the? And then coming to the conclusion, no, it's not the case. Not the. I'm going to stand firm here.

Right.

And you have some of those that are believers in Christians where there they can put their feet firmly planted in the ground and say I am continuing to follow Christ, which is a. Waging warfare on lies and toxicity and cancers and relationships and things like that. That's what the gospel does inherently. But then you have people who would identify as conservatives who put their feet in the ground.

Yeah.

And they say I'm waging war on these people. And I think that you're going to start seeing that more and more as this continues to happen where every aspect of our entertainment music, I mean you just had a Super Bowl halftime show done by a millionaire. And while he was performing it, it was narrated by another.

So.

And those two were there because it was suggested. AZ, A billionaire to do a show that narrates the story of America's oppression over black people.

Also, while other millionaires, majority black in the locker room, are in the locker room.

Resting while they played in the in the Big Super Bowl game.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so there are very smart and sinful people who are recognizing that. And and it's so odd because, you know, I was thinking about the question was like, hey, how would your friend respond if after that conversation, this was your conclusions like, you know?

Yeah.

You're right. You're right, I'm racist. I'm racist. Please tell me what to do.

You know, I should sign up.

Do you think would happen?

That's a great question. I don't. I mean, if I I don't know. I don't know.

Well guys, this is the way I want us to end this episode. I'll actually do an actual ending, but I'm glad that there's here so that we can all watch this together, because this was a highlight of 2024. Where somebody who contributed to this narrative. Idea of white. What she did with Robin D'Angelo did is she created guardrails for people who have justified hatred in their hearts. So if I'm talking to you, Alyssa and I give some frivolous accusation about who you are as a person, that if you. Respond in any way, shot or upset about that frivolous accusation.

Right.

You're contributing to my accusation inherently.

Right.

And it's called being. You're so fragile you can't handle a lie about yourself. Alyssa, why don't you take it with the, you know, chin up. And and and one of these individuals who decided to put his feet planted in the ground. Matt Walls, who? I said wait Once Upon a time, Matt Walsh was probably just the regular guy living with his family, enjoying time with his kids.

Go ahead.

And he decided, you know what? I'm.

Done.

I'm about to learn the art of trolling.

Yeah, he's he's gotten good.

In a way. Is just gonna tear all of this apart. I wanna watch this clip. Where he comes face to face with Robin Diamo. I have no idea how he was able to do this, but I I let let's go through this clip with Robin D'Angelo and see if she can put her own philosophy.

I can't do it.

I can't do it.

Thanks.

To use.

OK, Ben, if you're willing to come and sit with us for just a moment.

Sure.

Yeah, this has been producer on the film and. I thought it would be a powerful opportunity to speak directly to a person of color and confront our racism and also apologize for the white supremacist systems that oppress Ben. Do you want to go first?

Well, on behalf of myself and my fellow. People I. It is not you. It is us as long as I'm standing, I will do my best to challenge it.

I want. Tell you reparations right now. Will you accept? I'm turned down, OK? I don't know. Did you want to?

That was really weird.

Why was weird?

To me. Because you just got your wallet and I don't know, because I think reparations is like a systemic. Dynamic and approach. And so I mean I think. There may be some people who be offended. I can go get some cash for sure. If that's something.

You think I don't mind?

Happy.

If that would be something that would be comfortable. For you. Yeah. OK, cool.

That's all I was going to put you guys through, that's. I'm not going to do a whole thing. I can't believe it, but I mean. That's where we are. That's where we. And this podcast exists. Because one as Christians, we can look at that happening in the world, even as bizarre as it is and say, yeah, that's what sin does. And we defend against that in the church. And as the church for the sake of those who are perishing in the world, that they would be brought into the light and into this unity of fellowship, we actually share through Christ, we have that fellowship and that unity.

Right.

And that's why this podcast exists. Because we knew that there were a lot of people. In this country, who are feeling, even if they have healthy, good communities and fellowship. That just. I guess a meta narrative way feel ostracized like hey, I can't really talk about my thoughts anymore. When did that happen? And they're actually that's being promulgated by fellow siblings in Christ. Then this podcast exists to say, well, it shouldn't be. It's not going to be here and we're waging war against it. And Alissa, you have been a primary encourager to us. Continue in that fight and you've been doing it as well. So we thank you. Thank you for joining us in this episode.

So.

Well, thank you to you guys as well. Obviously are an encouragement to. I've continued listening since I found you, so I'm glad to be able to continue our friendship and hopefully you can come hang out in Grand Rapids sometime.

I know we need to make our way out there, need to make our way out there and prayers will be praying mayor, praying that the Lord opens up great opportunities for conversation with you and your friend. Happened to Darren's camera.

We're gonna go.

But with you and your friend, we'll be praying regarding that and hopefully it will open up some Windows opportunity to continue, you know, to continue having those hard conversations 'cause I think.

Yes, thank you.

What the Lord has shown me is that no matter how it goes in real time, the people you have the hardest conversations with will remember that you're the one who won't be moved in your convictions. And they'll remember that in times when they need somebody to lean on who won't move.

Right.

They'll remember.

Exactly.

And it's like the relationships that you do have with people. Are. When they're founded on Christ. You don't have anything to worry about you. It's like like I had said before, even if something happens between. Between a brother and sister or a sister and sister in Christ. And it goes poorly. You should certainly hope that there will be reconciliation, like real reconciliation, as a. And so I don't know. I think if that relationship just continues and you know and and it would be easier, I think if we lived near one another. We don't live near one another, but. We would be able to be there for one another, more present, you know, and I think that maybe that would make a difference, but I don't know that that's that silly optimism.

It's a.

I don't know.

I think it's an optimism a lot of believers will benefit from today. 'Cause, I mean, apathy is a real thing. People get fatigued, man.

Yeah. Like.

People are fatigued and like no, I'm not talking. I'm not dealing with this.

Right.

I think that optimism is something that could be a good conviction for all of us to say, another conversation, another text. Love is patient, right?

Yeah.

Endures all things so.

And indoors? Absolutely.

We appreciate you. We appreciate you. Well, even though Dan was late to the party, you finally made it. You made it.

Yeah.

Oh good.

We're going to continue on. I don't know how many more episodes. There is before you guys hear about my journey and the church planning journey. Stay tuned for. That and continuing on in this journey of waging war against the narratives that seek to divide, because those who are in Christ can't be divided.

Yeah.

You can't be divided. We're united and we are not united in our own doing in our own flesh, but through his majestic shed blood. So therefore they can't be separated. Can't be separated. We think you guys for listening in on this episode of Black and Blurred, where you're guaranteed to hear one of two things. Our humble. What's that was way too late.

Oh. Was my mouth moving?