#179 Healing the Wounds: Overcoming Church Betrayal and Heartbreak w/ Teasi Cannon

We are joined by Teasi Cannon who, through her unwavering faith in Jesus as her rock has endured some of the harshest treatment as a member of a local body. She tells her story of church betrayal and hurt from her former pastor and helps younger believers navigate the differences between church hurt and church discipline. If you've ever been hurt by a leader in your church and you need encouragement to see the beauty of the Lord and His bride through your pain, this episode is for you.

**We dedicate this episode to Teasi's mom who recently went to be with the Lord after a long battle with dementia. We look forward to meeting the earthly tree from which such strong and resilient fruit has fallen. 

Transcript

Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Black and Blur. Hi, that was late. It was late. That's crazy. It was late. That was not in it. There was not time.

Sing.

It was. It was late. It was late, but that's daring.

Am I cutting you off right now? No. What's? I don't know how to do it.

The timing is not great. It's not great. Brandon. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Black and. We're not going to waste too much time rambling on the beginning, but I did want to read a message that I just got before we. Started this episode because it fits in the reason we're doing an episode like this building into. Me sharing you my journey and why I know the Lord has led me and my family to come back home to Baltimore to plant a church. This is a message from Mom to three girls. She said. I listen to your thankfulness episode over the course of the holidays #172, I believe. I don't even know what episode I don't. Know the numbers at all. When you mentioned your wife and being thankful for how she holds it down and stands firm, really spoke to me as a brown woman. Something within me just doesn't sit well with African American. I agree. Don't consider ourselves African Americans. We're black Americans. My kids always said were brown. Anyway, as a brown conservative, historic Christianity affirming standing on the authority of scripture, stay at home, homeschooling Mama. It's a lonely. Sometimes I've been called all the names. A tough. The things you said I was like, yes, trying to live and raise our kids with a proper view of scripture and skin color has left us on an island sometimes. As far as with fellow brown people anyway, it resonated. I felt like there's another wife, mom, a preacher's wife out there who understands what it's like and where members of a multiethnic but predominantly white church, and we're getting all the stones thrown. And I think that's the case for a lot of people. And the reason we started this podcast is we said multiple times is because we felt that we felt isolated on an island and even more, it was very complicated in that I was in a pastoral position. Specifically. Your pastor there.

But what we.

Were afraid of is that if we were able to talk to each other about things happening that we both saw, we were afraid that we would just be accused of, you know, being brothers and conspiring. And at times that we did get accused of that when we had very valid arguments, but it it deteriorated a lot of what we should have been doing because I'm still a shepherd of yours.

Right. Yeah.

Then I. Paralyzed and I ended up neglecting that role, but out of fear of, you know, us being brothers in, in conspiring against those who whatever, whatever that is. And so it it. It felt isolated at times, but we decided to say forget it and not only talk about it, but talk about it on wax as they say. Now here's the black and blurred podcast so that we would unite the bride of Christ to the fellow. Sufferings. Then a lot of her. A lot of her. A lot. What she's enduring? It within the church, unfortunately, in the growing, I guess, apostasizing and moving away from Scripture and sound doctrine, as Paul says, will happen to the people who profess to be Christians. But in a in a brighter light, we wanted to show people. One you're not. But two, hey, stand firm in the things that you're saying are wrong. Don't be made to feel like you're the wrong one because you're willing to say, hey, this is wrong. It's not biblical.

Yeah.

And so I want to play a clip. A clip from a supposed shepherd and everything I'm saying about what? Whoever about to listen to are my. They're they're my thoughts from a third party observationalist standpoint and the words that you're about to hear, in my opinion. And I can speak for Dan and say. They're not shepherds words. They're not the words of a shepherd. And I think there are many people who have felt unspecified by someone they may have entrusted to that role as a shepherd. And though it can be, it can hurt to be treated this way. In general, it hurts even more when you've loved and trusted someone to a role of shepherding. Comfort care and authority. And you don't receive those things. So let me let me play this before we. Roll out our guest from this episode.

No, the scriptures they're misappropriating. Missing the heart. Part of it. They're just looking for someone to condemn. They're just looking for someone to accuse. So, friends in the midst of constantly testing and accusing and fault finding. They themselves are violating scriptures. Unbelievably demonic hypocrites. Now. I want to give you an example of of this, because this is. You'll get this. I wish I could say it of someone else's example, but this is my example. I got all kinds of enemies out in the world. All kinds. I wish I didn't, but I do. There's a woman for the last seven years who has been hell bent. Destroying my life. She's writing and posting and facilitating and filming and calls places that I'm about to speak at and stirs up problems and just accuses me of associating with the wrong kind of other Christians who are false Christians and false teachers and and all. That for seven years, this lady's done this. What I find so unbelievable is in the midst of saying. Horrific, untrue, slanderous, false. Accusing things about me. Several years ago. And of course it got taken down very, very quickly. Several years ago. There is a video of this same woman. At a wedding. Anybody willing to admit you know what, Shotgunning beers is? Well, I've. I've heard about it.

I.

Here's a video of this woman accusing me of being a false teacher. Shotgunning beers, which means drinking beer in such a way that you get as much alcohol in you as quickly as possible. So I'm the false teacher, but she's the one getting drunk and high fiving young kids who she's claiming to protect and to defend and teach the gospel to.

OK. Now I'm.

See.

I'm gonna end up allowing for context there, but before we invite our guests, who's with us right now? Do you remember when we were younger we used to play the game mafia. I do. What's the first rule of mafia?

The first.

Well, another. We made-up that says you never do this in mafia. When someone accuses you of being mafia, what do you never do?

You never say that. The mafia.

Yeah, you never do that because it means you're the mafia.

You don't accuse them back. It means you're the mafia. You need it.

It means you're the mafia. And So what we have here now, let me say this.

Yeah.

The. That video and that audio was played was 100% my idea. This was not brought up by our guest, wasn't requested to be played by a guest would even regardless of what accusations you heard in that clip, it was my desire to play that because I know that people who are listening to this, this episode, who have probably been. Pseudo attacked or attacked by a supposed shepherd like that before and I wanted to give context to what you're about to hear later on, but one of my favorite episode podcast episodes. Of all time was an episode with Lisa Childers and our guest. Today TC Cannon, and they were sharing their journey. At whatever church that they were at at the time and the reason I loved it so much is because what I was feeling from the journey that Darren and I had just come out of and we're still in, she perfectly put words to and and I think. That that suffering is a gift to us for her. For our sake, it is for our sake and for the sake of the bride of Christ, and I just want to welcome TC Cannon to Black and Blair today.

No, thank you.

Absolutely.

Thank you for having me.

It's a pleasure to finally get this done, especially to start off the new year with these episodes. I'm. I know that people going to be encouraged by, but just for our audience share a little bit of who you are teasing.

Well, I am. I think the most exciting thing in my life right now is that I'm a Nana I. Movies on 1/3 on the way and that is one of the biggest blessings of my life. I have 3. I'm married to an amazing man right now in this season of my life, I am doing a lot to help my mom. Who is. Walking through the long journey of dementia. But my passion is helping to equip people to have a faith that lasts that can endure all the different types of waves that hit us. I have.

Hmm.

A passion for apologetics like yourself, and just recently got a certificate from Southern Evangelical Seminary in Christian apologetics. And just really. Have a desire to just be available to God in any way that I can to glorify him and. Help people to know that he truly is the remedy that for everything, all of us.

Yeah.

Matter what? Of life, whatever, all the brokenness, all the pain. We have a remedy, and my heart is to help people find him.

Hmm, no.

Him. And discern who he really is.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

What you've. I how I found you is you were tearing your journey about. I guess just the battles of being somebody who is recognizing some signs and some red flags in the church that you were at attending at the time. And the shorter version that you can expound on is that that was a journey of tumult. Of of the stars and pains that even in that in the moment you weren't able to really be comforted by, you probably weren't even able allowed to even share that you were being scarred and pained. I think in real time you're being accused of 1 of providing scars. And pain and things.

Like that.

Sorry, from the top. What was that journey? How did you end? In this pathway of recognizing that it's necessary to stand firm even when it involves you possibly being divided from the local body that you're currently in.

Yeah, well, so this my story and you know, it's I'm in my mid 50s. So this I'm going to really abbreviate this, but pertaining to this particular pastor that you you all just.

Thanks.

The clip of. I was at this particular church for 23 years shortly after really dedicating my life to Christ. I I found a church. Was my first official pastor because I was raised in a totally different story. But like for a true. Christ. Gospel following. That was my pastor. And so over 23 years of my life, I was part of this Christian community, this family and. For many years. Was just so much treasure there for. I'm I don't want to say that I, you know, by any means was perfect. Obviously I learned a lot. Humbled me so. There, there is treasure that I look back on, but over the years I began to recognize things that troubled me. Just maybe more. Just. Like oh. Gosh, I just this is a. Word and I can't even think of it. Just from the pulpit, different types of pride or arrogance. The word arrogance. Big word. That I would would. Really grieve me. Different types of name dropping or using the pulpit to bully people that I was aware, you know, like the target of the sermon. I knew that. I knew those people. I was that person at. You know and. I just different things began to trouble me and ultimately, you know what? I would. Justify it. Because I loved my. I loved my church and we I think we're under this impression that we want. Give lots of. Race, you know, and I know the Grace I need. I've always known I need lots of grace. Wanna give lots of grace? But ultimately, that the story which you know you saw on the podcast with Elisa, which people can go watch to get a bigger story, is just that as I began to study apologetics and some theology, I became aware of. Different streams in the Christian world, some pastors, a movement that was very deceptive and dangerous and. And I was wanting to warn my pastor about inviting one of those influences into our church. And ultimately that didn't go well. I was. Truly thinking that my friendship, my bravery, to go and try to help. Bring shed light on something was going to be a blessing and it didn't end up being a blessing. Several months after we had this one guest speaker. Calm. That actually did bring division and was very confusing. My pastor called me into a meeting and his wife and my husband, and it led to a series of accusations against me. Him saying that he was personally and professionally offended by me. Accusing me of things and then ultimately. After my husband and I trying to go back to another meeting to say, you know, how broken. Was and try to do Matthew 18 and me believing that. It would work. It absolutely didn't, and you know, I just basically we were left with an ultimatum that we that he denied. What I was trying to say and then we were given an ultimatum that we needed to trust him completely. Mention any of our issues again, or go find another church. And that is such an abbreviated version of this. But Long story short, we ended up not having a choice because of integrity. You know what we knew biblically that that was not even something he ever even taught.

Yeah.

He would said if I ever say that run for the door, but that left us left me and my husband in this new arena of sheep that have been gutted. Kicked out and left for dead. And that is where I began to become aware of this whole new arena of broken hearts and broken people. And I. It is very tragic and very sad how many of us are actually out here.

Common denominator. As a matter of fact, I used to say this. Umm. When I first started walking with the Lord, I don't know when I came to Christ, I know I just started walking with him in college. I did not live as a Christian pre college, although we both grew up in a Christian home with parents who love Jesus so. That falling on rock bottom was falling on the rock and the foundation that they gave us.

I.

But a common denominator that I hear in these stories. Is that there are New believers and by New Believers. I don't mean you know, just got saved recently. Mean that they haven't had the time to be deeply ingrained in all the quote UN quote rules. Of what it means to be in church, one of which is you don't bring warnings to the pastor. You don't do those things that he might disagree with, and I love that those rules don't exist for somebody who hasn't. Adopted those things because only somebody who loves woodborn, right. So I don't know why we end up adopting those rules in this very churchianity type of culture, but that's one common denominator. And another common denominator is the maturation process. That maturity brings insight and an insight leads them to share it with their shepherd or leader in the church. And then that's what ends up getting them ostracized. What do you think of saying about discipleship?

Yeah, and it should have.

Was. Sorry, don't forget what you're about to. Say that, but in. In addition, what do you think that saying about discipleship in general? What was discipleship like at your church?

Well, I would say that there was discipleship going on, but it was for me, you know, I'll speak for myself I after 23 years of being a part of this one community. I. Did not know how to read, interpret and apply Scripture in a faithful way. I had been to Bible. There were many, offered, offered. And you know I would even do some inductive Bible studies and things like that, but it was just. I, for whatever reason, I was never actually taught a systematic way to read, interpret and apply the scripture for myself until I had this this weird perspective of how to even look at the scriptures. It was easy to wield against me. And easy for scriptures to be twisted or used to really exploit a guilt or shame in me. And so I think there was discipleship of sorts for sure. It wasn't. There were too many holes in it and it left a great vulnerability in my heart and I think in general in in. Most of my body of believers that I was a part of there may have been some people who actually had studied hermeneutics or knew something more than I did. Don't want to say that I'm the, you know, the perfect example of everyone that was there. But for myself, I realized as I was beginning to study the Bible. You know that I needed to know the scripture like for example, just not even knowing the qualifications for for church leaders. Know them. And therefore, because I wasn't familiar with, all you know wasn't thinking clearly how to apply that to my church and my church pastors. Those very clear qualifications just weren't addressed, or I didn't put, you know. Two and two together or, you know, connect the dots until after the fact. Unfortunately, kind of looking back.

Yeah. Do you remember what you were gonna say before I so rudely interrupted? Video.

I don't actually. I'm so sorry.

No, that's that's my fault.

If it comes back, I'll also.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. These these scenarios where. You mentioned grace. Man, man, my mouth. My mind is going to mile an hour.

Yes.

This idea of grace. Has sort of lost its beauty. Going to speak. Obviously it's not the case in every church or whatever, but in in in environments like this where we talk about grace, it seemed it's used more as a weapon against. Accountability than it is as.

Replay.

Displaying to the believer the beauty of this gift we've received through Christ.

Did it.

And I think that that can be done very passively by an over emphasis on grace. And no emphasis on sin. Was there any teaching, development and preaching on sin in your church?

Yes, there. And so, you know, I think I know exactly what you're talking about, but. What was a bit confusing at in in my church is that a lot of times the sermons were actually really good and I would say, you know, especially at the beginning of our church, they were very, very scriptural and the pastor was bold to speak. Truth would not. Punches. When it came to the gospel and sin and God's wrath and all of those ingredients that are often missing in maybe hyper grace situations for us it, you know we I have been raised with biblical teaching and even toward the end there was. You know there, there were sermons that would have been, you know, I would say, oh, that was a great sermon. But what kept being woven in more is there was a switch from being, you know, from the Bible being taught to the Bible being used. To support an agenda like a personal message that this, you know, this pastor wanted to make sure everyone in the congregation saw it his way. And of course, when you have the pulpit, you have, you can do that. You can turn the narrative any way you want to. And so I think. Grace wasn't abused from the pulpit, in my opinion. However, other things were like a heavy-handed teaching on gossip or a heavy-handed teaching on bitterness or things that would be used to automatically make anyone who was trying to share truth about their. Pain look like they were just, you know, gossiping or trying to slander or.

Yeah.

Use living in a victim mentality. So there were other things that were that were used from the pulpit in a way that I think what you're saying is, you know. Used to actually either support. Excuse or? Up the behavior of an unbiblical leader.

Yeah.

And to kind of say nothing to see here folks or create a diversion over there. And give you this illusion that there's a strength and a truth telling going on and and even that there's some true accountability behind the scenes when they're in fact. Isn't.

So as far as chicken and egg like what came first? Was it the fact that there was a speaker and you, you could give a really articulated argument on why the speakers teachings ought not be brought in the church? Or were there red flags in those red flags were then kind of affirmed through the fact that the speaker was coming to the church?

I think there were some red flags in, you know, in in over the years, but there weren't anything that I was able to really piece together. But as I was seeing them, I I again. Had a genuine respect and. Illusion or perspective that my pastor was genuinely a man of God. Know I was assuming that even if. Was. Or had a bad day or whatever when he got before the Lord. His knees. That he was humbling himself, or that someone, somewhere, was holding him accountable and saying, you know, hey, bro, that was, you know, whatever. But so it wasn't necessarily a series of red flags it that I was aware of that was that was culminating it was that the speaker it was. An NAR. I know you're probably familiar with the new Apostolic Reformation, and this was a. There. Church would have been more considered like a just a normal, non denominational, you know, slightly charismatic.

Yeah.

Moving more charismatic over the years, more into the more like, not just. Biblical, charismatic but more mystical. It was kind of edging that way. But it hadn't gone full bore until we invited this. Narrative to come. And so I did my best to try to warn my pastor about that. But ultimately, it wasn't that incident that led to us leaving because it was months later. Mean that was a disappointment. It both my heart and several people did leave.

Yeah.

Including other apologist friends. That they left because of that and.

Yeah.

Inability to trust leadership after that, but my particular journey, mine and my husband's and my family happens like six or seven months later. And it was. I don't want to keep rambling if. Want to say anything, so please.

No, no, no. I. I had a question pertaining to what you're saying, but keep going.

So basically how my what I showed us out? What started the process of us being asked to leave was that.

Mm.

In the midst. Going through these confusing things, seeing a confusing speaker come, not understanding some of the public messaging, I have a tight group of friends that will biblically solid, who love that Pastor.

That.

We were talking with one another to try to hold each other accountable in our thoughts. To figure out what was going on, but is this biblical which we need? Need brothers and sisters in the Lord? Help us to. Hold our own actions and thoughts accountable, and so therefore there are times when we will need to talk to people about what we're thinking, what we're experiencing. If that is not gossip that is not standard, that is actually getting counsel.

Yeah, right. Right.

Seeking advice that is. We can't be an island unto ourselves and make. Wisest decisions? But my pastor perceived those kind of conversations as me talking about him behind my back. Back. That is why we were called into a meeting. He he basically said you have been talking about me behind my back. And then he said, I don't have a problem with sex and I don't have a problem with money, but when my reputation is at stake, I have a problem with that. And that. Alluding to the three things that will take down a leader money, pride and sex. And I sat there and in my mind I was thinking. I cannot believe you're admitting. That your reputation means that much to you because that is so anathema useless like.

Yeah, yeah.

I remember just sitting there and I I was basically under the gun, falsely accused of things told. Like I said that I was a personal and professional offence. Basically, my heart was being stabbed and I was sitting there just. Completely in. My husband was in. He's had no idea what we were walking into and and so that meeting ended up being a real gaslighting experience because it was turned kind of at the end of where I was prayed for. And my pastor's wife brought out communion and at the end of it, my pastor said he felt great. So I left massively confused, spent the next several weeks in the dark night of the soul. Every night. Just hearing his words, I would wake up just. Tormented and gutted and in agony and sad and. And so, after several months of trying to figure that all out between me and the Lord. Couple. I'm vague on the time, but my husband said we need to go back and talk to him. We need to go back and let him know how broken you are and clear this up, and that is when we we went back into a meeting and he he was didn't. He didn't really have a ton of time. Was he made space? And I said that's where I said my I appreciate you and I don't want to take up too much of your. But when you said. AB and C. It begun me and I haven't been able. Get. It yet and I just wanted to be transparent and let you know how broken I am. And I thought the response was going to be, Oh my gosh, TC, I'm so sorry. I really, genuinely thought he was going to be grieved by what it had done to me and now instead it was. I never said any of that. In fact, TC I'm afraid of you. You take everything I say and twist it into something evil.

Mafia.

Yeah. And then he like proceeded. I didn't know the term at the time, but there was just a bunch of gas lighting going on, but a combo of compliments and tear downs and where it leaves you confused about everything. But in that meeting is when he said, you know, this church would love to have TC Cannon, but any church would love to have you and like 3 or 4 different times. The ultimatum I already shared was made to my husband and me. Basically, trust me. Don't talk about this or leave. And after 23 years, my husband was the children's pastor. This was my whole life. Know we didn't have friends or anything outside of this community, unfortunately. We had to make that painstaking decision because it really wasn't a choice.

Yeah.

Choice A was not biblical choice. Choice B. And there was this is important. In that church leadership model, he was the top. It was like a CEO model where the accountability was really, yes, men that had been selected by him, which we didn't know and I didn't understand, but. Therefore, there was no greater power, so to speak, to appeal to. We just had to leave and so we left our friends, our family, our children, everything they knew we had to leave. And then after we left, we knew and heard wind of false narratives that were. You know that I was the one that was a big jerk and blame, you know, was didn't have mercy for him and got my panties in a lot and took my poor husband out of there. And I was Jezebel preaching teachings galore with me. And you know as. Topic.

What are you doing during that time when you're getting wind of these things about yourself whilst?

Fleeting out.

I don't use yeah, like. What are you doing in that time?

Well, I'll tell you. For the first several months, I barely could breathe, and I spent a ton of time trying to figure out what just happened. What? How did what I thought was going to be such a beautiful moment of restoration and. You know, like I really thought we were going to leave that room. A snotty mess, loving each other more, you know? And instead, we got ushered away. And so I spent a lot of time reading. I spent a lot of time watching YouTube videos trying to discover. Put words to what had happened, and that is when I began to come across this term in this whole subject of spiritual abuse and even began to study narcissistic personality. Disorder and. Just at this deep dive into trying to figure out what how to label, how to understand. And what what? Just. It felt like I was in a blender. Just just trying to get. And unfortunately. Because of the the culture in that church. People and I was guilty. My we afterwards we realized that others had gone before us, just suddenly gone. And we were like, oh, my gosh, they I wonder if the same thing happened to them. And we then went about kind of revisiting people and. For forgiveness.

Yeah.

But what happens is you're just kind of thrown out and everyone closes ranks around the leader. And believes the narrative, and they're taught it's gossip to go find. Like for anyone to come to me to find out what really happened would have been gossip or not loyal to him. A heavy-handed atmosphere, like unspoken rules like you were talking about. Of. Loyalty. And not, you know, so you're just kind of thrown out. You are the one that's gutted, but you are left. And no one wants to touch you, but you're also put under a microscope if you behave badly. When you're bloody.

Yeah.

Then everyone points fingers at you, like see she is, you know, or whatever it was just a horrible season to be gutted and shamed and re victimized. By neglect and abandonment and Long story short, I just began to start. Pulling my way out, but the beautiful thing is is because of what I had studied of apologetics and my my more systematic study of of theology and doctrine. My faith was never faken. What could be shaken was but what couldn't. And that was the cross and Jesus and the resurrection. And I knew who my savior. I know who the remedy is, but I kept seeing left and right people that were going through similar things walking completely away. From Jesus, and that is kind of what both my. I guess the the unction or the the thought to start to say a few things publicly to try to bring resources to people so that they would not leave Jesus even though people had misrepresented him.

Yeah.

Badly in their lives.

You don't really realize how much kind of like toxic teaching. That you've imbibed until those moments, right? I mean you I think a big one that you talked about was was gossip. I think that pop that might have resonated with a lot of people. That's that's what Dan and I issue was this idea that if we. Are sharing experiences which our experiences overlap, not just because we were in the same? Church. But and not just because I was his pastor, but because we I also, as a pastor, served on the worship team that Darren led. He let it. And so we were experiencing a lot of aspects of toxicity that we needed to talk through because you know. You question if you're actually seeing what you're seeing and if you're, you mentioned your accountability group, I imagine that's what you guys are doing like because you don't wanna be loose with your accusations.

Well.

Also, don't wanna be unfaithful with your conclusions. So imagine you guys were gathering and you're like asking like, hey, am I seeing the same things? That is that right to assume.

Exactly. Yes. And you know I've I I try to tell people this whenever I get a chance. That gossip. Is, you know when when I'm telling someone something that actually happened to me, even though it involves other people? That's not. That's not gossip. Is when you find out a juicy tidbit about someone else. Completely unrelated to. Your situation. You know, maybe there's. I mean in general, but you feel a sense of power or some type of personal gain because you're in the know and you want to share that with someone else, either to make yourself feel more important or more significant in the moment or tear someone else down there. A motive behind it? That is self seeking and also. A motive that actually doesn't consider the other person at all, and it's it's generally just not at all for a biblical purpose at whatsoever, but talking to someone about your pain.

Yeah.

Even what someone did you what someone said to. Hey, someone took just like I need prayer. I want to talk about this. Should I do? People pay to go to counselors and you know, like, if if going to a. Counselor and telling them your life story and what you've been through and what mom did and what dad did. And if that's considered. We can't even go to a counselor. And that's just a massive misuse of that word.

Yeah.

That really. It keeps victims or confused believers silent. It keeps us silent.

Yeah.

And it gives a broad, you know, broad space for manipulative leaders to continue doing what they do unchecked.

You know. This is my flesh talking, but what's angering is that out of out of love for your local church. You wanna take the silent yet faithful route? Let's go the silent yet. Let's have meetings between you and I. Talk about these things silently. Let's not make it a huge deal. Let's seek counsel from. Fellow Saints that I trust. All four, you have to make the pain you and your husband have to make the painful, painful decision to leave. And there's brush fire about everything with false information and and and gossip around it all.

Yeah. And you? What's crazy is that clip you. I don't. I know you were going to bring context to that, but that's seven years. It has been this week, actually, ironically, 7 years since my husband and I left that church.

Wow.

Seven years and. To have. This come back up so many years later for me to still be the object of such disdain and you know.

Wait a second. The clip is 7 years old, or the the clip is new.

Hope is new, but it's seven years after we left.

Yeah.

Like it's. You know it is. It. I'm still being demonized in a certain pocket of his world in his mind, in his small group of people that still believe every word he's saying. And. You know my heart, you know. I did respond because my heart has always been, and my husband will knows me and has heard seen all the tears. I've cried. The love that I feel for him. And the deep grief that I feel that. By what I've seen the the the all. Enemies, he himself said. Has. I don't see them as enemies. I see most of them as good friends, or so many. There's countless elder. First, personal friends, long time friends were all in this club. Now we've all at some point or another, tried to love him well enough to say you are that man. But every one of us is like you are either aren't you're loyal or you're not. No middle ground.

Yes.

And I think that there is a lot of times with these abusive leaders, you will see this long trail.

Hmm.

You will see a long bloody trail. Of friends and others that have tried. Really have taken him these leaders at their word. What they're usually preaching from the pulpit. But. Which is this hypocrisy and this abuse of the pulpit? And there's just so many things.

Hmm.

You know, I still to this day, I I pray. Before him, I pray for the people that are deceived. And but I feel like. God has given me freedom. It's taken a while and it comes in. It's healing is a process, but in general there is a lot of freedom and there is hope.

No.

I do want everyone to know that there's hope. So many great resources. For helping to sort through to make sense of. And to bolster your faith, that's the thing I would say is there are so many imposters out there. But Jesus didn't fail. Jesus never. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Amen. Let me ask you this. Did you watch? Oh, no. Oh, Darrell, what was that documentary called about? Hillsong oh was that? Hillsong, or what was the Hillsong? Called yeah. You watch that documentary, TC. Called.

Hillsong I I did. I watched. I I don't know how I did watch a. About Hillsong, yeah.

OK, now before we get into that, did you also listen to? I I ended up watching these or listening at the same time 'cause people were telling me I should. This was a podcast and it was Christianity Today.

Mars hill.

There it is.

Yeah.

What were your thoughts about those in the category of?

Yeah.

Church hurt also and the the. I'll give a brief thought on my in my brief share on mine, but what were your thoughts on those? Different.

Yeah. Well, when I was listening to the Mars Hill, not so much the hill song we there were elements of what I saw in Hillsong that were familiar, but but with the Mars Hill series, there was so many connections, so many similarities between my story, between our church. Our leadership culture, the pastor. His personality, I think there was. It's been years since I listened to it, but I think there was even a woman in the podcast who? Was who really seemed like she was in a similar position as as what I was in trying to maybe bring some. Truth or accountability, or I don't know what. But yeah, no, that was very, very similar of course. Driscoll is has a much bigger platform. It was a much bigger church, however. The dynamics, the, the culture, the fear based culture, the high loyalty culture, the lack of accountability. It was so similar.

Yeah. I you know something, I I I feel like in that entire narrative, let's just stick with the Morris whole thing right now. I was behind because culturally speaking, I I knew nothing about Acts 29, Mars Hill. Mark Driscoll. I moved to Silver Spring in 2014. And around that time, there was buzz about what's happening and he, like, have. Heard about mark? And I'm like, who's mark Driscoll?

Yeah.

Be on border. In Baltimore, predominantly all Black church and Black American context, I had no idea who that was. So, you know, wasn't even till moving to Silver Spring in 2014 that I found out who. Keller. So that's that's how behind I was on that type of cultural understanding of things so. The significance of it and even the culture behind it. The. I was lost on and so because of that, even though I was caught up by the time I I listened to the podcast. I was still able to focus on some other things and when I listen to your story and I and I. It to. My own. One of the kind of praises that I've had in this journey was how grateful I am for God's grace in my life because I sympathize with people who would, quote UN quote, consider themselves deconstructionists. Because. Maybe, maybe not. The Marshall and I think some of the Marshall, but definitely the Hillsong 1. This pain that they dealt with in their local church context made them draw conclusions on Christ.

Mm.

And I'm thinking to myself, well, what was your conclusion before all this happened? Because but but I I I understand that right. I understand their anger and their pain, and then there's no one to comfort them. I. And you had there in his head someone to comfort us. And it's our Good Shepherd. That my heart breaks for people who are brought in to the the skeleton of it all, like you talked.

Mm.

They only see the that there is a product and a production, and there's aceo of up above it all. And when that is. Tears them down. Now there's nothing left.

Yeah. Yeah. Know what I want? Neat. Brings to mind for me is that is why I also really I know some people do not like these watchdog ministries. But I'm telling you, when people come into a church like you said, without the true gospel. Like for me? I wouldn't want to leave Jesus because I came to Jesus before I went to church like I had a radical salvation experience with with. Understanding I was a Sinner in need of grace and salvation so filthy and like so cleansed by the blood of Christ and my awareness of what Jesus has done for me. No one that's going to take that. Me. You know, I might. Feel grief and confusion here and there, but it's so good that a man. You know, not following Jesus and hurting me isn't going to take Jesus for me. I you mentioned that it's like what? Why would? What did you have to begin? Why did you go to church to start with? Are you a Christian? What? Why did you sign up, so to speak, to follow? In the 1st. And This is why I get frustrated as well by like the NAR or these false prosperity gospels or these, you know, sloppy grace gospels or. You know guru like live your best life now gospel because it fails because when the feelings are gone when the man falls, you know from the pulpit.

Yeah.

You you don't have anything. And so I'm with you on that. Why? I encourage people to. Truly. Like, don't listen to a gospel that doesn't include the wrath of God and sin, because that is what makes what Jesus did on the cross so beautiful. Don't understand how good the good news is until we understand how bad. The bad news is. And therefore it's, but we're thankful. I'd rather know how bad the disease is so that I can truly appreciate the remedy. Rather than thinking I don't have a disease, you know or all these different analogies, we can go into.

Right, right.

I'm with. I'm with you on that.

You know the an inverted thing there. You about to say something. Oh no, I can't hear you. I don't know. Going on. Oh, oh, well, that is looking sick. Sit there and look pretty.

We don't know what's.

Been going on with this, but we've been having some trouble so we might have to be changing some podcast platforms here, but. An inverted. I think that's prevalent that I think people need to hear is still under the in the context of this thing, we would call church hurt or spiritual abuse. But I think some people. Might be in as sheep. They could be in the position as your pastor was in the pastor in your. What do I mean by that? Is people will be angry at a pastor and leave a church because he's shepherding them?

Yes.

And they don't. They don't want to. Because he loves them and he sees. Hey, you. You shouldn't be living with your girlfriend. With your boyfriend, or hey, in marriage counseling. Going to tell you the. Let's be honest, you kind of just based on the same thing that you just said that like a watchdog ministry. I don't want you thinking that marriage is about. You know, walking hand in hand, eating ice cream cones and slow mo. It's it's a covenant. And you are covenantally being linked to someone who is inevitably going to fail you. In different ways. So your desire to be married needs to be rooted in something deeper than the fact that they make you happy. What you gonna do when they don't make you happy? What are you gonna hold on to? And and where's your desire for forgiveness going to come from and where, you know, is your desire to seek forgiveness gonna? It goes hand in hand. There are people who might think that their story is a story of church hurt. But it it might just be a story. That requires repentance.

Yes, I I totally. That's such a great point, because not everything that hurts is abuse.

Hmm. You.

Know you think about, you know, when you go to the dentist to get a a cavity filled or tooth pulled. That hurts. Use, so I think it's very right in our culture that people are so quick to call something abuse just because it doesn't feel good to them or just because they they feel offended by it and that is not, you know that is not at all what I'm saying. And that's not scriptural, because the gospel itself hurts.

Right.

The gospel itself, which is the best news in the world. Hurts. You know, it's requiring us to lay down our lives to pick up our cross and follow a leader who says you're going to need to love me so much that it seems like you hate your family.

Yeah.

That you're comparatively like you're going to hate your. And father to follow me, which? This means like be ready to let go of the thing your heart desires most. That's painful. That doesn't feel good. And I'm so I'm with you. Like I. When? Pastor a good. Loving shepherding Pastor is just trying to be biblical and hold people accountable, which is a gift. Which?

I.

Don't have like I would give anything to have a pastor that would really know me well enough to be able to really get in my chili when I. Because that is a gift from God to help us stay. The narrow. That's what the body of Christ was supposed to help. Iron sharpens iron and love one another. Enough to say the hard. It's so easy to say good things about one another. It's not. It's it's harder to love somebody enough to say hey. You know. You've got toilet paper hanging off your shoe or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm right there with. I understand what you're saying, and I think pastors Bible believing everyone. Going to blow it. It's not abuse to have your feelings. It's not abuse when your pastor has a bad day and doesn't say hi to you in the hallway. You know, pastors need space to be human. And I'm. You know, I think that's why understanding those biblical qualifications and also understanding them in light of God's full picture for all believers. Grace the the mercy, the love, the compassion, the tenderness is is so important, so that we don't. Call things that are not abused. Abuse, because also that just takes away. It actually is harmful to people who are truly victims of abuse for. Word to be overused.

Right.

Because then it's like you're the boy who cried wolf. If everything is abuse, nothing is abuse, and we don't want to do that to one another.

Men.

Really, truly don't.

I think that's, but not to shift. I'm not gonna stay on here long, but this is black and blurred. We have seen that in a I mean, that's transcended the conversation of church. I mean, anybody can be racist, right? Anybody can be xenophobic.

Yeah.

Homophobic. Whatever, whatever that even means. Whatever it even means. But. It it's it steals away from the reality of genuine racism. It's it steals away that those things are actually evil, when when we, when we hyperbole has become common, speak, it steals away from the fact that we call it hyperbole. And to begin with.

Exactly. Mm. Right.

It's *****. Quite ridiculous.

It is sad.

You mentioned your disdain for NAR and all this other stuff, and that seems to be rooted in the same principle that. They don't want to present a saving gospel. Want people to feel nice? They want people to feel good and the church needs people to speak up. That something that.

Yeah. Or it's or it is a partial gospel with a bunch of extra biblical stuff. You know, on top of it. That it sets. Up for an expectation for. The Christian walk is supposed to look like, I think with the NAR and some of these hyper. Charismatic. There's this big expectation that. The Christian Walk is going to be some. You know you're going to have this huge, epic calling and you're going to be a mountain mover and wherever you go, people will be healed or and the truth is, is that. Most of the Christian life is mundane.

Hmm.

It is the normal the daily, you know, I'm changing diapers, fixing dinner, going to the grocery store. And if my expectation for Christianity is this high, high, high, like spiritual high. I'm a spiritual adrenaline junkie. I am not going to be. Enjoy the presence of God in the valley, which, like my life right now, I'm walking in a season with my mom that is gutting me. And I'm not doing anything lovely or there's nothing, you know. Wow. You know about my life right now in this season. But I'm learning through it to find to to just find my peace in the character of God.

Yeah.

Not in what he's doing in my life or what opportunities I have or how big. A splash I'm making in the scene. You know, and I that's why, I mean, that's just one example. It sets especially young believers who really. Passionate about Jesus, but they've been fed this lie. And therefore. When real life hits, they aren't able to cling to the truth, and that breaks my heart.

Yeah.

Don't have a desire to bash things. Not. To say, Oh my gosh, look at that heresy.

No for.

Me. It's about protecting. I am truly a Titus, two woman now that is hard for me to believe. Really hard when you are. I'm like, I'm old, like, you know, but I think these young believers and I just want to scoop them up and say.

That's what love does. That's what love does.

I'm not trying to rob your funds.

Yeah.

By saying. Find the real gospel. I'm actually trying to protect you from the lies of the enemy that make you easy to pluck away.

You know that that picture of Titus 2, I think the the the you know the growing American church model. To be distinct from the American Church or the church in general. The growing American church model would do herself well to look at Titus 2 and put more of an emphasis on it. Because when we talk about diversity, even though we've honed in on black and white skin only, it's like that's diversity, but. That's diversity.

Yeah.

Titus 2 and for what purpose? Sanctification. Take your older Saints and make them rub elbows with your younger Saints so that their wisdom rubs off on their folly. And it washes it away through experience and but they'll end up learning from one another and and you need that because the zeal of the younger ones will rub off on the older ones who feel the mundanity of it often. Of. Feel like getting. I want to look at a passage really quickly before we close and it's in Acts 2 and you you mentioned this, you know the hyper charismatic movement. I remember preaching on acts 21 time and I said that our issue. With the church, when it comes down to charisma and the way that they perceive things. Is that they think about the beginning of X, where they think that every Sunday we're supposed to be recreating the creation of the church, which was a very supernatural thing. But everybody forgets what happened once she was made.

Mm.

Yes, the supernatural creation had the tongues of fire. Had the winds blowing at the flames. God's. There it was incredible and it would happen. They devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and the fellowship and the breaking of bread and prayers.

Mm.

Very simple, very mundane, but very powerful.

Yeah.

That's where the power was, and I think that we neglect that often and. These younger, vibrant churches would do very well to have some titles to women and Titus, two men in their church. Who have not just grown in their biblical study, grown in their apologetics, but have grown in their rejoicing in the midst of suffering. Young believers need that. They need that you bump into a person who just got hurt by their church because they came to. They had a lot of zeal, and as they're growing in the Bible, they're reading the Bible. They go to their pastor and they say, hey, this I had a question about what you preached. And I didn't think it was biblical, but can you walk me through that? They didn't like the pastor's response very often, and they're like, you know what? I'm done with Christianity. What do you say to them?

Wow. Well, it would be hard to give a full answer with just the one experience, but my encouragement would be for them to to pray to, to really be, to seek to understand, make sure you fully understand the situation like it could have just been a bad day. Know. But if this is a pattern and a habit, then you know I would just want to encourage them to to learn how to read the Bible, interpret it and apply it to their own life so that they are not completely. Umm, disillusioned and discouraged. The the most important thing is that they don't lose sight of who their savior is and that they understand we have a Good Shepherd and you know, I could go on and on. But my my biggest heart for them would be for them.

Yeah.

To to really seek to understand and then not only understand the situation, but understand the love of God for them and who their true savior is.

Amen. Well, I wanna leave people with just a desire to pray for your former pastor and then for those who are also in the office of pastor, that may not be upholding that that they are not above reproach, but they are very well within it. Let that we lift them up in prayer. What are some things that you also would instruct our listeners to be praying for regarding your former pastor and those who may not, who may be like him?

Yeah. Well, I would just say in general, just praying that God would continue to shine his light on the places that the body of Christ needs. You know where those places where we have lost our way. And where you know? Out of love to show us so that what's in the light God can use. Pray that. More and more great ministries that are helping people would continue to have the resources they need. To help those of us who have. Wounded in the church. You know, I'm always praying for people who. I can imagine right now, even people sitting alone at home who are just gutted and confused, and I just think if we keep them in our minds and our prayers as well, just that God would continue to bring people around them. Would be compassionate. But not compromisers I'm I'm compromising compassion.

Oh man.

People who have the patience to sit with them and not judge them and bring your shame, but I also really encourage, in addition to prayer. Just continuing to be educated on this entire subject. Can I recommend one really good book?

You can recommend multiple.

OK.

Well, I have on. I do have a website which I'm not trying to. It all, but I do.

No, I was going to get you to do those things anyway, so it doesn't matter.

OK.

I just have a section on there of resources. I have a lot of books and podcasts and YouTube videos and things that have ministered and continue to ministered. To me, in one way or another, not that I always agree 100% with everything taught, but it's it's got Nuggets in it that has really helped unlock things for me. Michael Krueger is a New Testament scholar. Probably heard of him. Wrote a book called. Bully pulpit, and it's actually written. Kind of for. For pastors, it's a lay level book, but it helps really explain a lot of what we're talking about, but also with a heart. Encourage shepherds. To avoid inadvertently hurting their flock and also. To just help them become more self reflective and that that's just one of the. I love it because it's really biblically rooted. So, but then there's others on my on my list. Too many, many good resources.

Now, what does that website say? Website.

It's my name, so it's TC cannon.com. That's TEASI. Canon CANNO n.com.

And people can access your YouTube channel through that too, right?

Yes.

OK, OK. Let me I am. I'm I'm praying that people are encouraged by this. If you're on the back end of hurt and you didn't know what to do with it, you don't know what's really happening, that there were words put to it, or if you are feeling like you're going through it, right. Now. My my encouragement that. Affirms what TC shared in this. Is that a part of the Christian journey? Is suffering. I think some of the biggest gripes we can have is that. We want. Be proven right, and sometimes the Lord will allow us to endure these things to help us to be reminded that we don't need validation and vindication. From man, we've gotten that through Christ. Gotten it through Christ. And so if he has you in a scenario. Seems to be unfair. Go for it, for his glory. Know that his name is made great in that and just like in T Cs journey, it can be used as something that shines brightly on the garment of the bride of Christ later on. TCI really appreciate you being able to share your testimony with us. I appreciate the strength that you have to even watch a clip. Like the one that I showed in the beginning, I'm telling you I couldn't. Planned on playing the whole thing but I'm like, alright, that's enough. That's enough. That's enough. But like I said, when we on the phone, I'm looking forward to taking a trip to Tennessee and we can kick back and hang.

Yes.

Get back and hang.

Sounds.

Good.

Well, I guess Darren's mic is. Not working right.

OK. Well guys, I.

Really appreciate you tuning in.

Yeah. Oh, I can hear you now.

I can hear you. Yes, you need to turn yourself up or something. Yeah. I don't know what happened. Yeah. Oh, well, buddy. I mean, I don't know, man. Don't know, but we appreciate you guys sending in this episode of Black and Blue. Guaranteed to hear one of two things, our humble opinion.

What the facts?