#139 The Black Church: Community or Cult?

How would you define the 'Black Church'. Is there such a thing, biblically? The title has been used over and over throughout history and we are realizing just how divisive it is. The 'Black Church' is to be distinguished from Christians who are black. The black church is a politicized and secularized segment of black Americans who see Christian faith merely as a cultural aspect of their greater identity - blackness.  In this  church, Jesus is not Lord but a mascot of the culture and following after Him is not a priority. We look at the many diverging faith leaders today within the 'black church' and connect their apostacy with the natural trajectory of the historical black church. If Brandon could tell the story, the 'black church' is a synagogue of Satan.

S.M. Lockridge - Jesus Christ is Lord

Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Black and.

00:01:42

Blurred. That's Daren. I'm Brandon.

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That is Tremaine Hawkins, wife of the late Walter Hawkins, and the song changed the an iconic song and I think traditional black Christianity. Black gospel music, yeah.

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I remember.

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Mommy used to love this.

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Song he probably still does.

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You know.

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I like this song.

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And I remember.

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Hearing this song sung at some Oprah thing, there was a breakfast. It was a woman's breakfast. It was on YouTube. I'm not. I'm not in tune with this like, but it was. It was in 90s, though it was in the 90s or maybe early 2000s. I want to say early 2000s because I think a shanty.

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OK.

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Was there so that is?

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Mid 2000s some like that and and they were going around singing it. You know, you had Patti LaBelle singing. You had like Whitney. Yeah. No, no, no. Whitney wasn't there.

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Early 2000.

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Yeah, she wasn't there.

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I don't know, but she wasn't there like Ashford and Simpson were there.

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It was. It was.

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So many people, I mean, even usher was there. Why? Yeah. Janet Jackson was there Dionne Warwick singing Chaka Khan sing.

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And they were all singing this song, and it was just going around. Bebe Winans was there. He led it. He started it, and then they passed the mic, and they started going on, and Oprah was describing it and talking about how magical it was, how spiritual it was. And and, you know, stuff like that.

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So yeah.

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And I remember thinking, do they know what they're saying?

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No. We've talked about that a little bit on this podcast. I've talked about it in posts.

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That I've made and.

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Video posts on YouTube and podcast episodes where it's.

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Like like Pentatonix, you have a Pentatonix singing Amazing Grace.

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Yeah, the whole Christmas album. Yeah, yeah.

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My chains are gone. I have been set free.

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My God and savior has ransomed me. This thing right.

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When thinking, do they know what they're even saying?

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But that's not the first time I started.

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Asking that question.

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I remember.

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A couple pivotal moments.

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Where there was, I don't know if you want to call it cognitive dissonance or just a bewilderment.

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The first.

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Was that our home church?

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I think we were all going through purpose driven life.

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That sounds right. Or a purpose driven church.

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Church. Yeah, maybe that's what.

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It was purpose driven church and.

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I don't recommend it. I'm not saying that book is.

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Bad in and of itself. Just don't weave down the tunnel of Rick Warren. I mean, I'm. I'm you know, I'm sorry. He's he's he's going in a different direction. So. OK. Still on top of Brandon. So we were looking at perfect believing church and the the statement was made that the church is a business. This is by our then pastor that the church is a business.

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And and I remember saying, well, no, it's not.

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Now I'm a new believer at this time, we've been to church all our lives, but I had just started actually recognizing that I am a duplicitous hypocrite who needs to repent and follow the Lord.

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And I'm like, no, the church is not a business. And he's like, well, no, what it is, it actually is.

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And I didn't.

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Go very far. I'm just young and I'm just like what, the church is not a business. Otherwise, when I slip open this big book, we look at on Sundays, I see that word somewhere. Business.

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I I'd see it somewhere. That was my only logic.

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The next time I'm going to come back to that, the next time I was in a preaching cohort, obviously this is like a decade later I was in a preaching cohort. I was now in ministry.

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And I was on a preaching cohort with fellow pastors, and we were just talking about methodology of preaching and and and some of the minute details. I'm uncomfortable with rehearsing and practicing because of how high I hold preaching.

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But preaching was called an act.

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And so, well, you actually are an actor. And I was like, well, no, you're not.

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Well, no, it is that you are acting was a response and I'm thinking, no, you shouldn't be. So yeah, when? When when you're when you're you're it's not manipulative but you're trying to get people captivated and you're trying to bring them in and draw them in. It's not bad to do that with the gospel you're not you know it is you are acting in a certain way because you when you.

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Use your vocal inflections and things like that was I'm I'm thinking and I'm looking around. I'm thinking am I the only one that is not thinking about doing that stuff and I'm just it just happens naturally because I'm I believe the things I'm saying.

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And so I, you know, going back to the purpose driven thing, the church being a business.

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The bewilderment I had was.

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Why are you willing in this very small instance to divert from the true nature of what the church is?

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The church is not a business.

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I don't care if you're saying that we do business dealings and things like that, but you know, me and Tony slap high fives, but she's not my boy.

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Right.

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You don't have to call the Church of Business and the same thing. Preaching is not acting. It ought not be acting.

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So all of that to say why?

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Were these the views are very powerful things.

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Handed down by the Lord, why were we so willing?

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To conflate secular practices and then identify.

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Things that belong to the Lord with those secular practices.

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That bled into just our, you know, over time we I think that that what I'm just explaining right now we've done for a long time when it comes down to what is called.

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Black church. We've done it for a long time.

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Where it's like.

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People are doing things and they seem so willing to play the role and do the things and say the things.

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Yet they don't seem like they believe it.

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And then some people you when you know their lives, you know, they don't believe it.

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That's when it got real for me.

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The music circuit.

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Is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Through through music and.

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Actually, more recent than you can than you than I.

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Playing with other people.

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Not from our church. You know, when I was playing with, like, Terence and things like that, you start meeting other people like, oh, it's not these people are all in the same circle like.

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You see some of our child for childhood friends in that circle or you see these people know. They all know each.

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Other it's like y'all. Y'all are the types, y'all are those types of people. They come in smelling like weed.

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You know, they messing with living with some girl here.

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But then you know, everyone knows them in the church circuit playing and they're always good. Yeah, they're always good. That's why they're well known.

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And everyone seems to know what's going on, and they're OK with it.

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Yeah, right. It just kind of.

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Just what it is. Yeah, I'm. I'm not, like, like, I'm not addressing the fact that there is sin that happens amongst professing Christians.

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I'm addressing that there seems to be.

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A lie that we're not a part of.

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Or or, not, not trying to sound self-righteous inside joke, or what's a memo? There seems to be a memo that we never got when it comes down to Christianity.

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As a black American.

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And there are a lot of black Americans that didn't get that memo and that memo cycles throughout the Black Church.

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To the point where even the song that I just highlighted in the beginning, Walter Hawkins and Tremaine Hawkins, comes from the Love Center. I think that's what it's called. The Love Center is the church that he founded.

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Like they were, you know, moving and advocating for same sex marriage and some of the bewilderment outside of, you know, the tactics and learning how to, you know, argue and defend Christianity for those things. Just personal thoughts I've had about that is.

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Why are people?

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Who have made a profession of singing.

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Biblical truths.

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Diverging from those biblical truths.

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Why they so willing to sing what they don't believe. Right. And it makes sense if they are acting.

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And I think that's what I landed on at the time. But what we want to talk about in this episode is how it's bigger than just a willingness to act.

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I I think it's deeply rooted in the identity of.

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The black church.

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And I saved the Black church with invisible quotations.

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Because I do believe there is a such a thing as a black church, I just don't believe it's a part of the church.

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I believe that anybody who identifies as a part of the Black Church is actually a part of a cult.

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And the church is made-up of many peoples tongues and tribes and nations, and every single one of those individuals have been transformed to a new creature with their old person dying, being crucified with Christ, no longer living as themselves, but Christ living in them.

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And those who identify as the Black Church.

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Remain black.

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That's it. That's it.

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There's an idolatry of blackness, an idolatry of ethnicity and idolatry, of culture.

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And if you don't believe me, we're about to just walk through.

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How the culture?

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Has given the precepts.

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And the commandments of how the Black Church ought to behave.

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And the Black Church responds faithfully every time.

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Every time so really quickly.

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I want to do a plug for support again and then I'm going to read a quick e-mail.

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Plug for support one we are raising support to higher media team, higher social media team that's all around the same thing. We are the number that I think is a suitable number to be able to do that for a nice amount of time to help boost our content and help boost our visibility. It's $5000.

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We're raising $5000 and that might seem like a small number of some people might seem like a big number to some people. The whole point is don't think about it personally. Just think.

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About what you could do to contribute, because we would deeply we be deeply grateful for your contribution if if our content has blessed you, encouraged you, has made you laugh, has made you angry, and make you think whatever it is I'm considered and prayerfully supporting us to help reach that goal of $5000 every piece of it.

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Goes towards the podcast, goes towards our equipment, but this one specifically is going towards being able to pay a media team to help handle our content, boost our content, spice it up, things like that you guys have already probably seen some things change in that regard.

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Please support us support us either becoming a Patreon a patron.

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On our Patreon page, www.patreon.com back slash black and blue, or for our PayPal, PayPal and then back slash Black and blur. Yeah, www.paypal.com yeah, back slash black and blurred and all of that stuff is on our episode. You can look in our episodes, you can look on our social media and our bio and you find out how to donate.

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So we would great greatly appreciate it. OK. Next thing real quickly, I was sent an encouraging e-mail.

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From a listener that I want to share I got. I got a permission to share it.

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And so that I will do.

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It is. This is Catherine Liu or Catherine Law. I think it's Lou who probably Lou.

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And it says greeting from Saint Louis area. My name is Catherine and I'm a new, newer listener to your podcast. I love every single one I've listened to, but my mind is totally blown by 1:35. And the podcast with your father.

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Ohh wow, that's digging in the crates, digging in the crates. The one we did with Dad on taxes and things like that. And episode 135. You mentioned that your favorite documentary on 9/11 is won by an atheist who became a Christ follower. Who is this person and what is the name of that documentary? And I sent I.

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Found it and.

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And I I when we talked about that.

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They couldn't figure out who it was. Yeah.

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We hadn't seen it for 10 years. I had no idea what it was called. I just did blind searches and it came up. But here's the thing. I wasn't finding anything because one, everything that was coming up about 911 was coming up by media outlets on YouTube. They had scrubbed this a bunch of stuff. Yeah.

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Yeah, I know. Yeah.

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You just remembered it, yeah.

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Right, ABC.

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So I went into back channels and before I started searching I prayed and I said Lord, can you send this? Can you send this? And the first search that came up was that document. I'm like calling to look at this. This is why I.

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Shouldn't care but.

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But but yeah, so this is, this is what she said when I when I sent it to her. So Brandon, thank you so much for your time looking this up. I'll be watching it this evening when I walk on the treadmill. My sister and I put your appreciate your podcast so very much.

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We are regularly.

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Listen, we are regularly listening to just thinking all the things analyst.

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Children's if you guys haven't heard about those podcasts, go look them up and listen to them. Just thinking, as Virgil and Darrell Walker, Virgil Walker and Darryl.

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I forget Dale's last name. Shoot, but it's just thinking all the things is Monique, Dusan and Alisa Childers. I try to always first pray for whoever whomever I am listening to before I start the podcast. My sister and I are both public school teachers and you do not know how much your podcasts.

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Encourage us. It is a dark, even world. We are living in. But this is my father's world. And though the world seems off so strong.

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He is the ruler.

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Yet that's from my favorite hymn. This is my father's world and your Christmas podcast made me think of that. The hope and joy of Christmas, the hope and joy of life, of the hope and joy of life is the death of darkness. Blessings to you and your family, Catherine, thank you so much for that encouraging e-mail.

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And also we're praying and we encourage our listeners to be praying for you and your sister who are teachers, just like our boy Delos, you're on the front.

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Right.

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In Saint Louis, you.

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Said yeah, you're on the front lines. Shout out to Delos, but you guys are you're you're fighting and you're kicking the door down and small ways and large ways, but just be faithful. Make the next thing you do be a faithful and thank you for that encouraging e-mail.

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Here we go.

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Ohh man, if you ever noticed that it's Black History Month, it's time to take a hot steam.

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Steely poop. I want the black shirt. Ohh man, man.

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So there were million ways to be able to start this conversation.

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And that typically leads me to paralysis. But I think that what I want to do is I want to highlight the things that have been circling around that everybody knows about right now. I've already given them my thesis about the Black Church, that I'm confident in, that I will stand by.

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We'll stand by on this podcast and I'm going to die on that hill because the, the the phrase that came up to me as I was preparing for this podcast and I was looking and reading and watching documentaries, is that the Black Church?

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Is a synagogue of Satan.

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It is.

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When you talk about the divisive.

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When you talk about the perpetual, uh, hateful rhetoric that has in our culture become normalized. See it, it's not normal for a white person to talk racist.

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They're they're obviously still white racists in the country. It's not normalized. What's normalized is for black people to talk racist about white people, and I mean racists in a classical way. Not like, you know, power and privilege or whatever the heck they change the definition to.

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In a classical way, a view of superiority.

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That you have a view of superiority over your white neighbor inherently.

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So yeah, it it is. It's synagogue scene.

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And and in social media, it's become normal to like, laugh at black church stuff. I'm talking about toxic stuff in black church.

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Who was the woman we were just talking about yesterday?

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That was Kim Burrell. Kim Burrell. There's a bunch of.

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Like that. But that's one of them. The other one I sent you was Shawn Mitchell.

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Number for stone. Mitchell did what?

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He was trying to sing a song and he kept.

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Playing his track. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These Divas, these Divas.

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Just give me a second. If you just don't wait till I queue you, I'm gonna queue you. You know, I mean.

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Don't play the.

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Song till I'm ready. All right. That's called worship. Yeah, that's called worship time.

00:20:28

Yeah. So, so I I think that you have people like a lot of these names, some of you probably don't know, but they're popular in black American culture, urban, black, American culture. Rick Smiley, Ricky smiley. Ricky Smiley has made a living off of being a comedian.

00:20:42

Thank you.

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Who does parody of Black Church stuff? Kev on stage? That's his name, right? He does parody of black stuff and church stuff. Now he's a professing believer.

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But my my question is how some of his content could be content. I I went to one of his shows with some of our best friends and a part of his joke involves just yelling Jesus's name.

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And at a certain point, there were people actually walking out of that.

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That's that's cause he's not that.

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Funny also. Yeah, that's it's true. But but.

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There were people walking out specifically at that point and and to be honest with you, that's not. That's neither here nor there.

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And to be honest with you, what?

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Nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing. There's certain people walking out, people walking, walking out.

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And you just gotta. I was talking to my friends. I'm like you got to ask yourself the question at what point?

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That is what is sacred, untouchable, right? That's the question. Because if, if what is sacred?

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Right.

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People, people, people are.

00:21:59

You're clear about what not to say about gay people or trans people, or handicapped people or.

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Correct, correct.

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You know, people are very clear about what words are off limits. People actually get in trouble.

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Yeah. For saying certain words that are supposed to be off limits.

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UM.

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For saying certain words are supposed to be off limits, and if they if they if they do, there's a lot of backlash and this is but.

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And for Christians, we.

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Don't hold people accountable, and if you do, if you are that Christian in the comment section like, hey, this isn't funny.

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Like at what point are you going to?

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Share the gospel, yeah.

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Like you say, you're a Christian comedian. Where's the gospel? You're just a a comedian who makes fun of church.

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That's right. That's right. And so incrementally, what ends up happening is the the church becomes a joke. Yeah, the actual church, the bride of Christ.

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Is a joke, and so if you think that what we're seeing right now is off the cuff that it's, you know, in the margins that we're in a very, very small minority of black Americans who think this about the Black Church. I want to play something really quickly because we're not the real church.

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Of your brothers and sisters who happen to be black are also noticing it, and they've noticed it for years. They just have never gotten the airtime I want you to listen to this.

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If that's how you feel, Amen. But what has come to pass now is that too many people have been undone by this new gospel that's coming out.

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It's so bad now.

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That when you preach the truth that the word.

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Of God straight.

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Out the scriptures.

00:24:00

Even chance folk get angry at you. I'm telling you now, don't get mad at me for telling you the truth. Get mad at them for making you comfortable believing the lie.

00:24:15

So now if you were to see that video and if you know anything about black culture in a Christian context.

00:24:22

He fits everything. He's got the suit right. He's got the the fat tie on loose and a little bit. He's doing the whooping.

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Obviously I don't do that when I preach.

00:24:37

But he's telling the truth, right?

00:24:41

And so I wanted to play that specifically to highlight that.

00:24:45

This black church that we're going to highlight in this episode, it doesn't involve the superficial aspects that connect the black church like the different to, you know, traditional things, you know, dances and flag waving. And, you know, hoping when preaching or things like that. That is a that's a style that belongs to a culture, just like gospel music.

00:25:05

I think it there's there's a some of it. There's a beauty. The whooping thing is not my.

00:25:09

Jam. That's just.

00:25:11

But but but, but neither here nor there, there are aspects of.

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It that are cultural.

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But the Black Church takes the superficialities of the cultural aspect.

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And it elevates it to worship and it's the.

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Main thing.

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And it becomes idolatrous.

00:25:31

So let's see, you know.

00:25:34

That was a passer I think out.

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Of New York.

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Who had, like, a kind of a more contemporary?

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Version of that.

00:25:43

He was a black.

00:25:44

Pastor Ohh I.

00:25:45

And and he was talking about, like, recent stuff he was talking about Jamal Bryant and Tim Ross and TD Jakes. And you talk about Jamal Bryant saying that they need to grow weed in order to bring black men into the church.

00:25:45

Talking about.

00:26:02

He was like he's, you know, basically his. His message is that.

00:26:05

We have to talk about that. Yeah, we can't as church as Christians, we have to hold these pastors accountable, correct. Stop going to their churches. Stop tithing to their churches. Stop paying these men there. You have it.

00:26:17

This is this is it here.

00:26:20

We ain't. Christ don't care what your title is. On mine, we need ringing out just the same.

00:26:21

Come on.

00:26:29

We need to repent for the greatest threat to the American Church is the American pulpit. We.

00:26:36

We are leading people astray. Not the devil we are.

00:26:41

Yeah. So, you know, people will make it seem like they they, they will vacuum eyes you when you say something truthful, they make it seem like you're in the minority. It's inverted. That's how the devil works. When the truth is in your face, it makes it seem like you're the crazy one and you're in the minority.

00:26:58

Meanwhile, the lies have to be propagated, promulgated and in your face, because that's actually the minority, right? Homosexuality. It's still a minority, transgenderism, overwhelming minority, but it has to be propagated in our face to make it seem like it's majority. It's normalized. And that when you disagree with it, you're going against what's normal.

00:27:18

So let's start with, you know these these popular names today.

00:27:25

Are are, are just reckless, I think as pastors.

00:27:29

Let's look at some of them. I'm going to start with.

00:27:33

Let's start. Let's start with Tim Ross.

00:27:38

Oh, it's here. No.

00:27:43

What do you want this dude to do?

00:27:47

What do you want her to do? Yeah, I said her. You know what I'm sick of.

00:27:52

I'm on one right now. I'm sick of the way women pastors are being treated. I'm sick of the way women preachers are being treated.

00:28:00

It is hypocritical in the body of Christ right now.

00:28:04

It is. It is mad wild.

00:28:09

That y'all don't believe that God can use a woman to preach. It is crazy to me.

00:28:16

That men still stand up and walk out of a church service on a Sunday morning because he's not going to let a female preach to him.

00:28:27

Oh. Oh my gosh.

00:28:32

Oh my gosh. You know, you know, it's been wild to me. It's to it's to watch pastors who who, who feel like women aren't supposed to preach on Sunday morning, and they wind up having kids and the best preacher out of their kids as their daughter.

00:28:50

I think that's just God mocking you.

00:28:55

You guys.

00:29:00

So he's out of touch with Scripture. None of it's mentioned.

00:29:07

What what he's doing is he's playing the dozens.

00:29:12

That that's what he's doing. I know, I know. He he's he's he what? They call it joining. I mean, all the different places. He, he's he's. He's what? What we used to call it. He's just joking with people. Cracking. Yeah, cracking. That's what we used to call it crack that's that's all he's doing. He's cracking.

00:29:25

Yeah, people.

00:29:30

They say bagging on the West Coast.

00:29:34

He'd never mentioned.

00:29:36

People's interpretation of Scripture and their reverence for scripture. Thus their obedience to scripture.

00:29:45

He never mentioned what Paul says. What about the role of a pastor? Yeah.

00:29:48

What the heck? What? What is the hypocrisy? What is the he use the word hypocrite.

00:29:53

What's the hypocrisy?

00:29:54

Yeah. Now I'm not going to do a big theological thing on that. If you listen to this podcast, we, you know, our stance on the pastor, the will of Pastor and we, you also know that that is not a prohibition against women. Just like when God made Adam a man that wasn't a prohibition against women to not be men.

00:30:14

But now you have to talk like that today because we go away from God's design.

00:30:19

That's it. That's it. We just do not elevate the will of Pastor as far as it being from God as we ought to. And so we think that it's about power.

00:30:32

And that, you know, some of that's not unwarranted. You have sinful men.

00:30:35

Who do think it's about power like him?

00:30:37

Well, think about it in the context of.

00:30:40

Black Church and I mean that pulpit is a.

00:30:43

Position of power.

00:30:44

Yeah, well, I'm getting to that. Ohh. I'm getting to that. This is just modern. Yeah, this is modern. So the question is, well, why is this younger pastor in 2024?

00:30:54

Now taking jabs at men. Why is this man whose primary audience is women? Possibly I.

00:31:03

Don't know the.

00:31:04

Fact that there's a lot of men watching that.

00:31:07

But who's who's whose primary audience is women.

00:31:12

Taking jobs at men.

00:31:15

Who are in a role of Pastor Shepherd Protector, Dragon Slayer, who will be weighted differently in their judgments because of their role of teacher?

00:31:27

Why is he doing that? Let's look at another one.

00:31:33

Let me find one.

00:31:37

Let's let's listen to ex. Baltimorean Jamal Bryant.

00:31:44

Who was authentically pro-life then they would.

00:31:48

Polish the death penalty if they were really pro.

00:31:54

Than they would put more money into head start programs if they were pro-life, they would seek to assure the opiate addiction in this nation. If they were pro-life, they would make sure that teachers feel safe in their schools. If they were pro-life, they would be stiff stricter.

00:32:00

This is the.

00:32:13

Measures about gun control in this nation.

00:32:16

If it was pro.

00:32:17

OK, you guys get the you get.

00:32:19

The point, yeah.

00:32:20

Now he's a politician.

00:32:21

Yeah, if you if you didn't get what he was doing, that was him talking about women's rights. Yeah, AKA abortion AKA.

00:32:29

Right.

00:32:30

Or really, OK, a murder, it's murder. And how?

00:32:43

Did the quote UN quote black church?

00:32:46

Become the number one.

00:32:52

Of the single greatest thing threat to black children other than slavery.

00:33:01

How did that happen? We'll look at that.

00:33:05

And that was stupid. That didn't make any sense.

00:33:10

None of it made sense, but it's manipulative. Also, no one cries black nationalism. Yeah, you know, sidebar. Do you know it? We gotta watch it. There's a documentary coming out about Christian nationalism. It's called God and country. That's the push to push us to see that these, these white, white Christians. And then they're white adjacent Christians.

00:33:30

Like us are Christian nationalists because we want to see.

00:33:36

Divides morality in our country. Apparently Jamal Bryant wants to see Satan's morality in our country. Yeah, and that's not called Christian nationalism because he's a profession Christian, obviously. But yeah, no one, no one screaming nationalism. Right? Right. Meanwhile, I think the things we're most used to seeing.

00:33:56

Is politicians in black churches? I just talked about how Martin Luther King Day or whatever Joe Biden, went to Martin Luther King's birthday. I mean, birth, church and Rafael.

00:34:07

Why not?

00:34:08

Lily in Atlanta.

00:34:09

Yeah, he was there. He preached and I wasn't.

00:34:11

Joking, I thought that Brandon. No, no. I have to see something like this.

00:34:14

Yeah, I might have to pull it up.

00:34:16

Because I don't even know.

00:34:17

What that means, he.

00:34:18

Yeah, you know, I mean, like, what does that mean?

00:34:20

I'm I'm I'm saying that he got up there. First of all, they did all the stuff they they they acknowledged a bunch of people. They highlighted CEO's who were there and stuff like that. They had they had United States flags all up in the joint.

00:34:35

And no one's calling it Christian nationalism. Very interesting, right?

00:34:38

OK, let's move on.

00:34:39

Let's let's watch. Let's.

00:34:40

I don't know what the means by he preached. Let me know what he's saying.

00:34:45

Let let's listen to this. This is Jamal Bryant again.

00:34:48

If you yell, then you're gonna be a millionaire, but nothing about delayed gratification. Nothing about sweat equity. I opened up in our church that 92% of my congregation don't have an investment portfolio, so I had to bring in stock brokers to show them how to do it. The Bible says we die from a lack of knowledge.

00:35:09

So the stuff that was applied brief.

00:35:10

The grief out of context. Good.

00:35:12

Grief, you die, cause you'll know how.

00:35:14

To invest, yeah.

00:35:16

That's out of context, but let's keep going.

00:35:18

For your grandmother.

00:35:20

Means nothing to you. And so I said I had to zoom with all of my singles just this week. Is that?

00:35:28

For me to tell 16 year olds to be celibate is one thing, a 37 year old who's used to getting some. I need a different kind of gospel, so the church.

00:35:40

What is he saying? Are we? Well, he is really nasty. We watch.

00:35:44

This didn't we?

00:35:46

Yeah, I think so. A while ago. Yeah. OK. So you mean you're seeing it? This is the church, remember. Remember Darren, this is the church.

00:35:57

That's that's a pastor.

00:35:59

He's a Christian pastor.

00:36:01

You see how easily he said those things as if obviously this is, yeah, this is the way things are. You know, people who have sex, they need a different type of gospel now in in his defense.

00:36:14

He's using gospel loosely, our tribal generous. That's still a very.

00:36:22

What's the one I'm looking for?

00:36:25

You can't talk like that as a pastor. Also, that methodology and that thinking is false. It's unbiblical, and it leads people to hell. Yeah, yeah, it it, it it and it. And you don't trust the power of the Lord. You don't trust his goodness. You don't trust his sanctifying power. You don't trust the power of the gospel, but so easily.

00:36:31

What does that even mean?

00:36:45

And so willingly, he's willing to show, willing to share and show that he doesn't trust those things that happen. How did that happen? As a black pastor, how is he talking to this black co-host who's listening to him and nodding?

00:36:57

Like. Yeah, yeah, woman.

00:36:59

Yeah. How'd that happen? I'm gonna do one more for modern times.

00:37:05

This one will be William Murphy. So no, no, wait. No. No, no, no, no, no. Let's let's do this.

00:37:13

This is from a form done by June 3 project, now the June 3 project. When I first came in contact with him, I thought.

00:37:23

That it was good.

00:37:25

The the whole, the whole kind of premise and the point of G3 is to highlight.

00:37:32

The foolishness of the claim that Christianity is a white religion.

00:37:37

But now I I don't know if I'm right now, it seems like instead of it saying hey, Christianity is not a white religion, it is a eternal faith. You know it is it. It hosts many different peoples through 1 Lord. Now it seems like it's more like a no, it's not white. It's black is what it seems.

00:37:58

I could be wrong, but that's just what it seems. Now. This is a conversation called courageous conversations between pastors and intellectuals, all professing Christians, and one of these pastors who you're about to hear, Doctor John Howard, John Wesley.

00:38:15

Is A is a prominent pastor in the Black Church of.

00:38:20

Man, what's the church in DC?

00:38:22

Man, I forget I forget. Maybe they have it up here.

00:38:27

Uh, yeah, I I forget. I forget. But let's just listen. Let's just listen to the conversation a little bit of the conversation.

00:38:35

Let's let's jump into it. First question is, how would you define exclusivity and inclusivity?

00:38:43

Anybody can jump in, but everybody got an answer.

00:38:46

So from the.

00:38:46

Personally, I'm informed by the spectrum that is laid out by John Knox and God has many names.

00:38:53

So this is Doctor Howard, John Wesley, a pastor.

00:38:57

On the real one extreme, now we use our extreme, but on the one hand, you have the exclusive position.

00:39:02

That only in Jesus Christ.

00:39:05

Salvation exists now. I think we have to define what we mean by salvation at some point in this conversation, but that it's only in Christ, I don't know. And I, you know.

00:39:08

Yeah, yeah.

00:39:11

Go ahead and do that. Go ahead and do that right.

00:39:15

OK, not that don't know. You know, I'm Baptist. I know what it means. And I'm. I'm blood washed and you know, Holy Ghost.

00:39:21

Field on my way to heaven.

00:39:24

But but I do have concern about what we mean by salvation as we have.

00:39:28

I mean.

00:39:29

Where someone stands on the other extreme. Of course, you'll find that universal positioned that the death of Christ was so efficacious that all are saved even without confession. I'm coming a little bit back from the universal stance that pluralists that there is clearly salvation and other faith traditions, and I would identify myself more of the inclusivist which would say for me.

00:39:51

I believe in the possibility of salvation. How we're going to find that outside of Christ.

00:39:57

But Christ is my only experience, so I can only advocate for what I've experienced, but I do not deny the possibility of other avenues outside of my own walk.

00:40:07

So what does he preach? What does he preach? He's a black church pastor. He preaches oppression. He preaches. He preaches shackles breaking. He preaches. Breakthrough is coming.

00:40:21

I remember my first introduction to him was coming across a video of him coming up to the pulpit in a.

00:40:28

Guess what? Had just happened during that time? Yeah, Trayvon Martin had been tragically killed. And so this day that we stop and gather.

00:40:30

One month.

00:40:38

And we preach is centered, focused unto.

00:40:45

Christ. But it's stolen.

00:40:49

It's not in the black church.

00:40:51

It's not as a matter of fact, in a clip, Monique Dusan actually did an episode on Martin Luther King Day and Joe Biden being there and.

00:41:02

And know if you don't know money design Center for biblical unity, all The Things podcast Off Code podcast. Go look at those. Listen to those things. Go listen.

00:41:10

To that go follow their page.

00:41:13

And she just played some of the service.

00:41:16

They told I told you they they did the black thing. It's it's, it's a, it's.

00:41:20

A common thing.

00:41:21

In black churches, they ask guests to stand. If you got prominent guests there definitely stand. So everybody can see you. If you were of different faiths.

00:41:32

They said.

00:41:33

This is that Martin Luther King Church.

00:41:35

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you are of different faiths, stand, make sure you go find that. Go find it. Guys. Don't. Don't believe me.

00:41:45

Question me and go find this stand that we all are under God or we all worship God is what they said. Things like this. This is a Christian Church.

00:42:00

And the question is how?

00:42:03

Do they so loosely and willingly?

00:42:08

Divert from the narrow way.

00:42:12

Doctor Howard John Wesley is not someone who has his own opinion on salvation.

00:42:19

He rejects Jesus's notion of salvation, right?

00:42:23

It is Jesus who said he is the only way.

00:42:28

He rejects Christ.

00:42:31

Practice Pastor washed in the blood.

00:42:35

That, that, that needs to be addressed because he's shepherding people.

00:42:42

He's shepherding people.

00:42:45

This is this is a common passages that you know are coming alive for us today. They've always been alive and they're they've all. It's always been true. But we are in the later times and we should make sure that we are aware of when that's right in our faces.

00:43:05

This is second Timothy 2. I'm sorry, second Timothy 3, but understand this that in the last days there will come times of difficulty for people who lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abuse of disobedient to their parents. Ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control. Bull not loving, good, treacherous, reckless, swollen.

00:43:24

The conceit levels of pleasure rather than lovers of God having the appearance of godliness.

00:43:30

But denying its power.

00:43:34

Paul, how should we deal with these people? Should we become friends so we can share the gospel with them and should, should we, you know, not go to church with them, but we should go to the movies and things like that or or, you know, maybe. Maybe we should just talk.

00:43:44

On the phone and ask questions, try to understand the courageous conversations and stuff.

00:43:49

Avoid such people, he says.

00:43:53

Avoid such people.

00:43:57

Did you? Did you watch that whole thing? Yeah.

00:43:59

Whole conversation, no.

00:44:02

This is another one.

00:44:04

Another passage.

00:44:09

First number four.

00:44:11

While the spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insecurity of liars whose consciences are seared or forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with Thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

00:44:32

For everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with Thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. Now what's important about what Paul says about those who are, you know, forbidding marriage and things like that.

00:44:46

And abstaining from foods is because that's what the false teachers of that time were saying. Now they're they're false faiths that talk about us left still, but that's what was prominent. So what he's really highlighting is they're going to be people who teach false things, of the contemporary, that it it's going to be contemporary. It's going to seem normalized.

00:44:51

Right.

00:45:08

And it's going to be false.

00:45:11

And this seems like only the Black Church is doing this stuff.

00:45:16

What you got? You know, you got something just being, like, only the black Church or the church. Just only.

00:45:20

The Black Church, I mean those who identify themselves as the Black Church.

00:45:25

The black church.

00:45:27

I'm not talking about Christians who happen to be black. I'm not talking about churches that are filled with black people, that that pastor we just listened to in the beginning, that was an entire black church, like a period that that's all black. That was all black church with a black pastor whooping and everything talking about the truth of the gospel and how people are departing from it.

00:45:50

So what the Black Church does not involve every Christian who is black.

00:45:55

No, I mean you said only the Black church is if there's white church.

00:45:59

Is uh. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No.

00:46:00

No, no, no, no, no. This is all in the context of what we're talking about today. Yeah. And like you said, it's Black History Month. We try to give Black History Month.

00:46:06

Right, right, right.

00:46:06

The flowers, you know, I mean, give.

00:46:08

Black History Month is flowers and is the thing.

00:46:12

Black History Month has become idolatrous. That's why we're doing this.

00:46:15

I'm manipulative and what do you? What is the word?

00:46:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:46:20

Provocative, yeah.

00:46:22

That's exactly what it's become. That's exactly what it's become. So I stumbled across a documentary actually sent to us by our sister Hilda. This was a few years ago.

00:46:33

And it was called the Black Church.

00:46:35

Hmm. Yeah, me.

00:46:38

Yeah, Oprah is in it.

00:46:41

Is executive produced by John Legend.

00:46:43

What is this?

00:46:45

It's the black church, baby.

00:46:48

That's black church.

00:46:50

It's secular, inherently secular.

00:46:55

That's not to.

00:46:56

Say that the start of what they may.

00:46:58

Call the Black church.

00:46:59

Started with non believers and only secularists who called themselves Christians. And I mean think about black culture, a part of black culture is Christianity for it. It's just dressing.

00:47:11

Christianity serves as a pillar in the Ultimate Act. The ultimate aspect of our identity, which is our blackness. That's what it is, so.

00:47:11

Margo sent to do that.

00:47:24

Listen to this opening of this documentary.

00:47:29

Let me see. Let's listen.

00:47:32

It's open.

00:47:33

Take him in the house to lay him before Jesus and they couldn't get in the house because all the religious folk were blocking the entrance, so they decided to make their own entrance. And that is what I love about this text. This thing is so beautiful. Look at this, everybody.

00:47:53

Is in the house. They want to hear Jesus, but they don't necessarily want to practice what Jesus is teaching. And here you have some brothers. They try to get in the house, but you had all these people that had positions.

00:48:10

Never confuse position with power. Pharaoh had a position, but Moses had the power. Harrod had a position, but John had the power. The cross had a position, but Jesus had the power.

00:48:33

Lincoln had a position, but Douglas had the power. Woodrow Wilson had a position, but I, to be wells had the power. George Wallace had a position with Rosa Parks had the power. Lyndon Baines Johnson had a position, but Martin Luther King had the power we have.

00:48:51

We had three flags, the Bowl 3.

00:48:55

Don't you ever cook it?

00:48:58

You got dog.

00:48:59

That's what he said. He said nothing.

00:49:01

What you got on?

00:49:02

First of all I want to put the Jesus part at the very end, but not.

00:49:06

Whoa, whoa, whoa, don't skip past that. Why do you think you didn't?

00:49:12

Because it wasn't. He's not black to them.

00:49:16

He's not. He's not a black.

00:49:17

Idol, The Black House involved a picture of Jesus.

00:49:23

Probably JFK.

00:49:24

Martin Luther King, someone who had Abraham Lincoln.

00:49:30

Jesus, just one of them, yeah.

00:49:33

He's not, Lord. He's not often perfected with the faith. He is the one from to who from and who in tone? All things.

00:49:43

He he he's not. He's not God, he's not the creator of.

00:49:46

The universe.

00:49:47

Yeah. Also, some of those little some of those things don't make sense. What do you say? Rosa Parks. And what was the other one? Lyndon Baines Johnson. Yeah.

00:49:58

Lyndon Baines Johnson had a position. Everything was wrong.

00:50:01

Yeah, nothing, nothing makes sense.

00:50:01

First of all.

00:50:03

That that is not an existential take on that text, even as he's explaining the text he already is diverting from the fidelity of Scripture. He says that there are people there not practicing what Jesus is teaching. The religious folk are in the way. It's like, no, everybody's clamoring to hear.

00:50:18

Jesus, just like the guy trying get in the roof, he's trying to be healed. They're building people trying to be healed. Mm-hmm. That's why the house is full. That's why the house is full.

00:50:28

And they're all in the same boat and so.

00:50:31

He, he, he.

00:50:33

That's it.

00:50:34

And the reason Jesus wasn't at the end is because the right person, the right savior, was at the end we. That's what he ended it with. We have the power.

00:50:46

That's what he ended that with.

00:50:49

Yeah, that's.

00:50:49

And they rose to their feet and send to his applause.

00:50:53

Yeah, yeah. I don't really get the whole. I mean, obviously, that's exactly what a what a.

00:50:58

A politician would do and and you know, that's what. That's what a that's basically what listening did at new Shiloh.

00:50:59

That was a political speech.

00:51:09

What's the governor, Marion?

00:51:10

What's more, yes.

00:51:11

Yeah. What's more than that? I I imagine Joe Biden did a version of that Hillary Clinton did that. I ain't no way. He's tired. They all have done it. You know what I mean? And.

00:51:15

I don't. I don't wanna listen to.

00:51:19

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also just, you know, there's now this episode is about, but every politician he named and name was Democrats. Yeah.

00:51:27

Yeah, and and what's interesting is that that's my head Twitch. When he said Lyndon Baines Johnson like, that's our guy.

00:51:32

That's this guy. That's the guy.

00:51:33

You know, I mean, that's the guy. And I don't think they even know.

00:51:38

UM.

00:51:40

I don't think we're going to get to it, but that that's that's the plan. You're doing it. He's like, yeah, they're doing it. And Marcus saying is, yeah, they've done it. We did it. Guys. We did it. They're preaching foolishness and killing their babies. That's right. We did.

00:51:44

Yeah, right.

00:51:47

Yeah, yeah.

00:51:52

It that's right.

00:51:54

And and and what they want to do is beat up on.

00:51:54

So I'll leave the whole time.

00:51:59

Believers. Yeah, who also are black.

00:52:03

Who want the truth?

00:52:04

Trying to call them slanderous terms and to.

00:52:05

Yeah. Schedule Tom. All this other stuff.

00:52:06

Store them into.

00:52:08

Into doing that or being a part of.

00:52:10

That so that was the opening of that documentary. It's done by, I think it's it's done by Henry Louis Gates. I'm not very familiar with him, but, but yeah. And I I just want to play some more clips because.

00:52:26

What's important about this document in the Black Church is that you got clergymen and you have intellectuals and and professors and things like that. And.

00:52:36

It's important that we know that or and it's important that we get a sense of their perception of the Black Church. That is how you realize what the Black Church actually is.

00:52:49

Their perception of it as they retell history, you know how, how accurate that history is. You have to do your own research and and. But a lot of it is not inaccurate.

00:53:00

Of what they're talking about. Mm-hmm. So let's look at some other things.

00:53:05

Let's look at.

00:53:09

This one. Listen, listen to this.

00:53:11

Slaveholders truly believe that this would imbue a spirit of complacency by encouraging them to follow an example of Jesus as a very meek mild servant.

00:53:24

But it was the sacrificial suffering of the Carpenter from Nazareth that would ultimately resonate most with enslaved black.

00:53:33

There's something liberating about the message of the cross, particularly about persecution. Those who are unjustly persecuted, those who are forced to suffer at the hands of an evil empire, those who are enforced to deal with nails and the whips.

00:53:45

So let's let's.

00:53:53

Of an old rugged cross.

00:53:56

Just like our enslaved who are feeling very acutely, the suffering of society can identify with that Jesus.

00:54:07

They knew there was something about this Jesus that was different, that he was oppressed and put down like they were and and he got up from.

00:54:14

The grave.

00:54:15

The grave hero with the Mighty Triumph or his foes, he arose. I love that too. Yeah, you can feel, yeah.

00:54:21

I mean, Sam, you can feel it like he got up. Yeah, he got up.

00:54:26

What in the?

00:54:27

World, yeah, bro. And so it's it's slightly, it's actually very heartbreaking. And so this is a very subtle difference.

00:54:35

On our vantage point with Christ, and that what Paul calls the Fellowship of Christ suffer.

00:54:44

Is that it is because of his suffering that we willingly suffer, right? But their vantage point is I like that guy style. He suffers like us.

00:54:53

He suffered like me, right? Right.

00:54:58

That's very different.

00:55:01

It's sacrilege. So.

00:55:03

They, you know, part some of the things that they say as they're narrating in this documentary.

00:55:08

Henry Louis Gates, he said. Ohh, let me go. Where was that? It said that the church, the church, that's also the the The thing is called the church and the tagline of it is this is our story. This is our song.

00:55:25

But it said the church provided A catharsis, you know, in in that previously slaves practiced a wide variety of religious traditions. So. So it's highlighting how these slaves came over and were given Christianity.

00:55:42

But what's being shown throughout this documentary is how tweaks were made, and blackness was added to it in a beautiful way.

00:55:51

And made it their own.

00:55:57

That's not correct. Now, were there some who came to Christ through?

00:56:02

Hearing of the gospel? Yes. Were there some who were indoctrinated with a toxic form of what was called Christianity? Yes, but.

00:56:13

I mean.

00:56:15

The first Christian Kingdom was in Africa.

00:56:19

Yeah, that really misses me that lot doesn't really meet me because I guess I'm trying to picture what that looks like, right?

00:56:31

Black Monkey men, apparently, who have no thoughts. Yeah, or brain they know of no religion.

00:56:37

No culture.

00:56:38

Yeah, nothing.

00:56:40

Some white man, ain't you, boy. Go over here. Learn this thing and read this book here. And that Jesus, you're not really for you, but believe him. Like, what does it look like to indoctrinate some with the Bible? It's it's a big joke. So if if if a white guy gives me a Bible say hey.

00:56:56

Learn it and I read it, and then I actually become saved. Now I have No Fear of you. I mean. What? What? What? What? What does it mean? If I actually believe when I'm reading, when I become saved, he's done me no wrong.

00:57:12

They actually gave me the best gift ever, a Bible, and now I can read it.

00:57:17

You know, and I I just don't get it. What do people what? What do people say happened? You know, I mean.

00:57:22

Yeah. What they're what they're saying happened is and and.

00:57:24

That white people cooked.

00:57:25

Up Christianity and said hey, let's feed.

00:57:27

It to these.

00:57:27

Well, they do. Yeah. They talk like Christianity started with white people. And so what's interesting is.

00:57:30

That's insane.

00:57:32

Like Spain. So what's interesting is what Jude three is fighting against supposedly about fighting against the thesis that or the.

00:57:43

Christian that Christianity is a white man's religion that ultimately fighting against a lie, that black people project onto society.

00:57:51

Right.

00:57:52

That's and that's if that's what happens today too, yeah.

00:57:53

That's what it is. That. That's what it is now. Is that paired with negligence? It is as a as a seminarian.

00:58:03

Who asked questions about different authors I was reading and and even if I am going to read ohh man, my mind is just gone. I can't think right now.

00:58:14

Ohh man. German spy Christian.

00:58:19

Oh boy.

00:58:21

People listening to the podcast right now probably yelling at me.

00:58:25

Man, my mind just dies but.

00:58:28

Yeah, there's a there there, there's a.

00:58:29

There's a very prominent Christian in history who was also a German spy who came over to New York.

00:58:39

And he settled at a black church in Harlem.

00:58:43

And he garnered a lot of robust theology that he then put in his books. Bonhoffer Dietrich bonhoeffer.

00:58:53

He put that in his books and informed his theological it informed his understanding of cheap grace. This idea that Christians live as if they can do whatever they want because they have grace. And yet there is no obedience. There is no suffering. There is no sacrifice, and it that was under this umbrella of what he called cheap grace that.

00:59:13

What was influenced by a black pastor regarding that and it would lead me thinking like?

00:59:19

Why did I have to like stumble across this information? How come I know about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but I don't know about his pastor?

00:59:22

Right.

00:59:27

And so those types of questions do perpetuate the mentality that all Christianity is a white religion because white hands are on it, and we only know about white, prominent people. But it's not as prominent As for someone to conclude. Oh, it's obviously a white religion.

00:59:41

Yeah, and and and and you know it's flaw, you think about somebody like Frederick Douglass.

00:59:47

Booker T Washington.

00:59:49

They start talking about the Bible and what what do they do best right? What do liberal minds do best? They.

00:59:57

Admit their own racism.

00:59:59

Or even denigrate their own people.

01:00:03

By saying, I mean he got. He got taught that by his slave master.

01:00:07

He had no brain. He couldn't have read the Bible and and come to believe on his own, you know? I mean, he had to be forced that so he gets no credit for being a believer and a true believer.

01:00:20

Right, stupid. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And in the moment you are.

01:00:20

Because he's too.

01:00:29

The moment you are someone who speaks like Frederick Douglass does in this quote, I'm about to read.

01:00:35

Even if you will want one of us.

01:00:38

The hope is that when you speak about the gospel the way someone does, when they come to Christ, that person that Christians hope is that people will see. Hey, I was once like you and now I see that this is true. That's not how it works all the time. Most of the time, it's like, oh, now you just wanted to you, you, you, you.

01:00:56

Are going too. This is what Frederick?

01:00:58

Frederick Douglass says.

01:01:01

And this is in his uh, this is in the narrative of the life of Douglas. So autobiography biography.

01:01:08

I think it's autobuy, or maybe it's just.

01:01:10

Biography I find since reading over the foregoing.

01:01:13

Narrative that I have.

01:01:14

In several instances spoken in such a tone and manner, autobiography respecting religion as may possibly lead those unacquainted with my religious views to suppose me an opponent of all religion to remove the liability of much.

01:01:28

Misapprehension, I deem it proper to append the following brief.

01:01:34

What I have said, respecting and against religion, I mean strictly to apply to the slave holding religion of this land and with no possible reference to Christianity proper. Now real quick, he's addressing that Christianity doesn't have a start point in America.

01:01:52

Right.

01:01:54

4 going on quote for between the Christianity of this land and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference.

01:02:04

So wide that to receive the one is good, pure and holy is of necessity to reject the other as bad, corrupt and wicked to be the friend of the one is of necessity to be the enemy of the other. I love the pure peaceable and impartial Christianity of Christ.

01:02:25

I therefore hate the corrupt slaveholding women whipping, cradle, plundering partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land, UN quote. And that's important to recognize because.

01:02:39

What they're doing in this documentary.

01:02:42

Is there also highlighting all the religions? I mean there's a time.

01:02:48

When they talk about Islam because they talked about slaves coming over with their own religious practices, like that's what it said. It said slaves practice a wide variety of religious traditions, and it's talking about just the religious richness of slaves in which they did, because it starts to list some of them.

01:03:08

Matter of fact, I was reading an article that talked about Santeria being one of them Caban slaves.

01:03:15

That's straight up brother worship and today, you kidding me? You're the Breaking Bad. Yeah, that's what the twins. One of the brothers. The hitman.

01:03:24

Ohh wow. Ohh.

01:03:24

Crawling to that's sent to the event right? And and obviously there's been like, you know, some syncretism and things like that with it. But yeah. But but. But they treat the religious spectrum like it's a spectrum. That's why Howard John Wesley talks the way he does. Right. He's being faithful to his religion.

01:03:26

OK.

01:03:45

Christ is not the only way.

01:03:47

It's about the beauty of religion.

01:03:50

Let me keep going here.

01:03:53

Here it is because you.

01:03:54

Won't see your boy in this clip here.

01:03:56

In the South, things were so bad that a lot of it was just make sure your soul is safe so you can get to see Jesus.

01:04:07

Most of the sermons.

01:04:09

They're just about holding on to hope.

01:04:12

Preachers just helped people live another day.

01:04:16

So things didn't get better for them. They got better for their children and their grandchildren.

01:04:24

Black people had an existential and political reality that says they were a minority who could be wiped out without legal redress or moral compunction, and their religion help them sustain themselves long enough. You got to survive long enough to rebel.

01:04:42

In 1791, a black religion played a key role in sparking the battle cry for freedom in the French colony of San Demang.

01:04:52

During a now legendary voodoo ceremony, men and women made a pact to end their enslavement, no matter the.

01:05:01

The result would be the most successful slave uprising in the history of the world and the birth on January 1st. 18 O four of the first independent Black Republic, which they named Haiti.

01:05:18

It in.

01:05:20

So what's the highlight of that clip, would you say?

01:05:25

Yeah, I would say that. I mean obviously the.

01:05:29

Idea that.

01:05:33

Black religion.

01:05:35

Something being called a black religion. Yeah. So vague kind of opens the door to it being anything you can kind of shape it to.

01:05:42

Whatever you want it to be at that point.

01:05:43

Well, that's because explicitly, it wasn't Christianity, right? And. Yeah. And so even if you listening to a podcast, you can't see the video. I encourage you to watch the YouTube video. Yeah, the, the the pictures are showing depictions of that uprising. And it's also showing.

01:05:52

What are those pictures of?

01:05:53

Them. What are they doing?

01:06:00

Their spiritual practices that obviously aren't Christian. And here's the thing, if it's not Christian, it's doctrines of demons. It leads to hell. Why am I highlighting that? Why am I nitpicking at things that happened in history? Because this is a documentary about the Black Church.

01:06:21

But what they highlighted in that clip is the beauty of religion doing what they want to really see.

01:06:29

Beat oppression of slaveholders.

01:06:32

Now, is slavery bad? Yes. Was it ubiquitous in the world? Yes. Is it prominent in the world today? Yes. That doesn't mean we demean it and we we we we do use it however.

01:06:51

I'm about to read a passage it.

01:06:52

Just came to me.

01:06:54

Slavery is not hell, right?

01:07:00

That's going to make some people mad.

01:07:03

Like we do not have minds of Christians when we think about slavery, about.

01:07:14

I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about Colossians 3.

01:07:19

This is important, Paul says this if then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things that are above, not on things that are on Earth, for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ and God.

01:07:39

When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. What they are highlighting in this documentary is the complete opposite.

01:07:48

Right. Their minds are completely yeah, the slavery of sin. Yeah.

01:07:50

Glory is being freed from slavery.

01:07:55

Is what we should be setting our minds on. But like you just said, true glory for them in highlighting this documentary is being set free from slavery. But you know what's interesting about that? You know what's interesting when you're tossed to and fro by the waves of culture?

01:08:09

That you you're being tossed to and fro by the waves of culture. What do I mean by that? Well, when slavery existed in this country.

01:08:18

The Black Church had a clear enemy.

01:08:22

White people, although there were black people who were enslaving white people too, but that's not a part of black history. So we can't talk about it. Yeah, that's right. You can't talk about that either. These people of these other religions, those beautiful traditions, they do these little dances and then all of a sudden they got roped in the dances and all of a sudden that rope is around the ankles of some.

01:08:28

All black people who sold these black people black people.

01:08:41

Other black dude and all of a sudden he dragging him do a gauge.

01:08:43

But we can't talk about that because it's called Woman King and it's a nice movie now. But so there's a clear enemy. It's white people.

01:08:54

But then it's time goes on, and by God's grace, slavery is abolished.

01:08:59

By the bloodshed and the fight of Christians, not only Christians, not exclusively Christians, but primarily Christians, yeah.

01:09:11

So no slaver is gone. You still got white boogie monsters out there. You got to deal with those. But now you have established black churches that started from black slaves huddled in spaces and hearing the word preached by another slave who could read.

01:09:28

And those formed in the churches.

01:09:31

But if there is no Lord over that church.

01:09:35

And now the enemy is getting kind of blurry. The enemy becomes your own self. Watch how it turns out. Watch how it shows.

01:09:47

The church has two identities. It has the identity of being oppressive of women, and it's interesting because when you look at slavery, the Church of the slave master, it's that same kind of message that we go to the slave.

01:10:02

So when women begin to demand empowerment.

01:10:07

They call out this dual contradiction and I think for them to give up to women was in many ways in their heads, emasculation, and then they had the Bible, they had the Bible to tell them that they were supposed to be on top.

01:10:24

It's just that the women had the Bible too. That could say to the men, the Bible say more than that, dear.

01:10:29

Let me introduce you to five uppity. Wow.

01:10:33

These women with uncommon courage emerged as valuable contributors to community life. Their story is told in numbers of 27 chapter.

01:10:43

And important religion item. Today, the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the AME with two and a half million members, has a woman Bishop for the first time.

01:10:52

Vashti Mackenzie is making history at the top of America's oldest black.

01:10:57

Church. It took four years of aggressive campaigning for Mackenzie to shatter what she calls the AME's stained glass ceiling.

01:11:06

It ain't about me. It's all about God.

01:11:13

What are we?

01:11:14

What was? I have some questions. Was she elected or what? What? What happened?

01:11:15

Yeah, let's hear.

01:11:18

I don't really know. I'm not.

01:11:19

Familiar with the.

01:11:19

Lazy loop like like shocked that.

01:11:20

Yeah, I think I think, yeah. There. Yeah, I.

01:11:22

She got picked or what is this?

01:11:23

Don't know, it seemed like. Yeah, I don't know how that works. I need some coaching people to tell us how that.

01:11:27

Works and things like that, but that's different though.

01:11:30

Right. Oh, that was Amy. I'm sorry, but I'm.

01:11:33

But yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what they're.

01:11:37

Ecclesiology is like in in in things like that and how they handle that. So, but it seemed like, yeah, there was a vote and so.

01:11:43

Yeah, I mean, obviously, yeah, there's the, the, the, the, the, the enemy was the white man. White man is gone. It's not the enemy is each other. The black man, the feminism movement takes over.

01:11:52

Black man.

01:11:53

That's right. That's what it was. If you're going to be tossed to and fro by the waves of the culture.

01:12:00

That unfortunate.

01:12:00

Gently, feminism had a bigger stick than the Black Church, so that's going to come in and it's going to make.

01:12:06

Itself at home, I wanted to hear what she was going with that then have the Bible. The women. Oh, you women have the Bible too. And not all it said. Go on.

01:12:09

Yeah, it's not about me. Oh.

01:12:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:12

Yeah, the one that the Bible says.

01:12:15

Yeah, but but that that's what I'm saying. So when you listen to that clip?

01:12:21

No, that wasn't out of context. That was the documentary that was then. That was their presentation of what she provided them. So if if she's taken out of context, it was by Henry Louis Gates and the documentary People, not us.

01:12:36

But based on what she said, the Bible seemed like an impediment to the flourishing of the Black Church. Yeah, didn't it?

01:12:43

Of women in the.

01:12:44

Black church. Yeah, I mean. But what I'm saying, it's a documentary about the Black Church. And so women empowerment and their demands within the Black Church contributes to their perceived flourishing of the.

01:12:45

Right, yeah.

01:12:47

Right, yeah.

01:12:56

Black church, right?

01:12:58

Right, that's what it seems like. So Tim Ross is not having an epiphany.

01:13:04

When he's prophetically raging against men who are holding on to their pulpits and not letting women in, he's being faithful to his religion. That's what he's doing.

01:13:17

OK, we're going to run through these because we're we're we're creeping on our typical time. It's going to be a longer episode, but I I just want you guys to see how the Black church is a synagogue of Satan. It is, it really is. Let's listen to this one so.

01:13:35

Obviously God has mentioned Jesus has mentioned and things like that, but obviously in the backdrop of that the undercurrent is that you know all religions are cool. You know what you want to do it. But now and you saw in the Jesus suffering one that the the thing, the beautiful thing about Jesus is that he's like us in his suffering.

01:13:54

There is no theological significance in that realm about his suffering and death and resurrection man.

01:14:00

Right.

01:14:03

His resurrect but so. So you see that you see that there's this God being molded in in their image, in their image. It's done explicitly by a pastor during those times. Listen to this.

01:14:18

Delivered a blistering sermon at the first gathering of the National Baptist Convention, Bishop Turner asked for those in the room to see the face of God in a radical.

01:14:29

The way it did not go over well.

01:14:33

I worship a ***** God. I believe God is a *****. ***** should worship a God who is a *****.

01:14:43

Henry McNeill Turner comes along and he says everyone has a God that looks like them.

01:14:50

Everyone but us but us.

01:14:53

Right. If we are created in the image of God, then God is black.

01:14:58

When Henry Mcneal Turner talks about that that Jesus is a black.

01:15:04

Man, I'm sure everybody fell out. Everybody absolutely fell out. What in the 19th century to say that? Absolutely extraordinary.

01:15:15

He's creating what we now call Black theologies. He's literally challenging several generations now of a complete kind of universality.

01:15:24

Of the idea of Jesus as this white blonde haired guy.

01:15:27

I'm laying down to sleep but.

01:15:28

He has a line where he says Lord have mercy.

01:15:33

On any race of people who do not believe that they look like God, and I think that sums up.

01:15:43

So much of what the Black Church has fought its way through and has been fighting for.

01:15:51

And that is to have its people see themselves as important to God as not less then. And Henry McNeill Turner. He got the.

01:16:04

So not being less than seeing being valuable to God, that's important you to be to know that you are made by him, that you are made with dignity, that you are fearfully and wonderfully made is the popular phrase to use, as David said.

01:16:22

However, from this perspective, it's coming from a high view of self.

01:16:29

A high view of self.

01:16:32

And so when I get inklings of Jude 3.

01:16:36

Having this thesis that Christianity is not the white man's religion, but it is our religion.

01:16:46

Those inklings come from.

01:16:49

Probably unfairly not them explicitly, but the culture and the culture comes from that. That gentleman who was preaching during that time, I forget that date. I forgot to write it down.

01:17:03

But yeah, that was that was in earlier centuries. That was centuries ago.

01:17:08

Was the 19th century, she said.

01:17:09

Yeah, 19th century.

01:17:15

In this documentary, is treated as an indigenous belief. Black people came over as slaves with Islam. That is, that was a part of some of the religious practices they had.

01:17:27

He was he was interviewing a young woman who owned a land and who from her.

01:17:33

Ancestors who were slaves and they were Muslim. And she's like, yeah, I'm I'm Muslim and you know, you know, irony of that.

01:17:41

That Islam only spreads from ****** and pillaging and killing people.

01:17:44

Right. That's the result of peace. That's a good religion.

01:17:49

As a matter of fact.

01:17:51

One of the strongest defenses against Mohammed's push.

01:17:56

Was the Ethiopian church historian scripture of the Ethiopian Unit receiving the gospel? You know what happens at the Ethiopian eunuch at they receive the gospel.

01:18:07

He went home.

01:18:09

He went home and you have the 1st.

01:18:13

African nation is Christian.

01:18:17

It's Christian slaves didn't come over dumb.

01:18:22

Not all of them.

01:18:25

Yeah, they interviewed Jennifer Hudson. She said that she watched an each Easter Sunday film. She began crying, and that's when I felt like I really got it. And and that's all they show. I don't know if she said more.

01:18:36

Of that but.

01:18:37

There's just a very emptiness of faith.

01:18:41

I'm not criticizing Jennifer Hudson. I'm criticizing this documentary. They chose to show what they wanted to.

01:18:46

Do of her.

01:18:46

Interview, but there's a genuine emptiness of faith when it comes to this. But now. But then also they got your girl in here.

01:18:56

They got Oprah.

01:19:01

And you know, let me let let's just let's just hear Oprah.

01:19:06

The church was the center of my life growing up. It was everything I lived with my grandmother in rural Mississippi. It was church on Sunday. It was church on Wednesday night for choir rehearsal. It was church on Friday evenings getting ready for church. Sunday. The church gave me the faith.

01:19:26

And the belief and the knowing that no matter what, everything's going to be all right.

01:19:35

No matter how dark the night.

01:19:38

Preach, brother.

01:19:41

After reconstruction.

01:19:43

OK.

01:19:45

So she was.

01:19:46

Always in church. My.

01:19:47

Belita the Black Church was a pillar for her look real quickly. We're not going to talk about it. Let's just let's just see how it turned out. Let's see the fruit of her being so well churched.

01:19:56

There he, Anne Williamson says in her book return to love that we're always walking in the direction of one or the other, that all of your actions in life either you're moving too.

01:20:05

The darkness or you moving toward the light. She calls it fear and love. There's this wonderful book called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, which talks it which, which is. Anyway, it's a gorilla talking. But anyway, it talks about one of the points it brings out is one of the mistakes that human beings make is believing that there is only one way to live and that we don't accept that there are diverse.

01:20:06

That's right.

01:20:22

That's all.

01:20:25

Ways of being in the world, that there are millions of ways to be a human being and and many ways now but many paths.

01:20:29

Then how do we please God?

01:20:33

To what you call God and her path might be something else, and when she gets there, she might call it the life. But her loving and her kindness and her generosity brings her if it brings her to the same point that it brings you, it doesn't matter whether she called it.

01:20:35

That is phasing.

01:20:47

God along the way or not, and I guess the danger that could be on that, I mean it's it sounds great on the onset, but if you really look at.

01:20:53

Besides, I could be.

01:20:54

Possibly be just one way. What? What about Jesus?

01:20:58

What about Jesus?

01:21:01

And you say there isn't only one way.

01:21:04

One way and only one way and that.

01:21:06

Possibly there couldn't possibly be with a possibly be because you say you intellectualize it and say there is, and if you don't believe that, you're all buying into the lie.

01:21:09

All the people.

01:21:19

Do you think do you think that if you if you are somewhere?

01:21:22

On the planet.

01:21:24

Where are you? If you're somewhere on the planet and you never hear the name of Jesus, you never hear the name of Jesus, but yet you live with a loving heart. You lived as Jesus would have had you to live. You lived for the same purpose that Jesus came to the planet to teach us all. But you are in some remote part of the earth and you never heard the name of Jesus.

01:21:34

That's interesting.

01:21:41

You cannot get to heaven, you think?

01:21:44

Scriptures too. People are talked about that God knows.

01:21:47

God care about your heart or God care about if you call his son Jesus, well, you know.

01:21:52

Oprah, God Jesus cannot come back until that gospel is preached in the four corners of this earth. So.

01:22:00

You don't figure it out.

01:22:01

OK.

01:22:02

OK, I can't get into.

01:22:03

A religious argument with you?

01:22:04

What? Yeah.

01:22:06

What? Why can't you? You know.

01:22:08

You have so this.

01:22:09

Is the heartbreaking reality of that interaction.

01:22:13

This is not that wasn't about a conversation between.

01:22:17

A Christian and Oprah.

01:22:20

Obviously that's the case, yes.

01:22:22

But that was a conversation between a woman who has been shepherded and discipled.

01:22:29

And Oprah, who spent so many hours and years in the church.

01:22:34

The black church.

01:22:38

And that's the result of it.

01:22:41

And there are people like that right now. Ricky Smiley I mentioned in the beginning, I think I told you about this, but he was on some interview asking very.

01:22:52

Elementary questions about Scripture saying that he doesn't believe it tells the truth. It's like, but you do the whole church thing. You talk about church, you play gospel music on your radio show. All this stuff. Why are you doing that? Well, that's because that's what the Black Church does.

01:23:09

The Black Church isn't about Christianity. It's about blackness. And there's some church stuff. The dressings of church that are.

01:23:16

Interfaced in black culture.

01:23:21

But it's asking questions. I've had conversations I told you about, where people are coming up to me like. Yeah, man, I'm not a question anymore. I mean, you know.

01:23:30

The letter J didn't come around until so. I'm.

01:23:32

Like what bro?

01:23:37

But that's the black church. The Black Church is unchurched. It's undisciplined. It's unshaded.

01:23:47

And they're still waiting on their breakthrough.

01:23:52

DJ's got his, though. You always get his.

01:23:54

I know, I know. I'm tempted to play that. But yeah. Yeah, no, that, that it's not no need to play that video. So Tyler Perry is at Tina. Jake's.

01:24:02

And Tyler Perry is invited to come up on stage to share with the whole congregation that he just donated $1 million and he starts saying some tongue stuff, some a lot, a lot of stuff. And then he goes over to TD Jakes and he touches it and Teeny Jake starts convulsing. It's a circus.

01:24:16

Like how big convulsing teeth might just give you.

01:24:18

$1,000,000.

01:24:18

You know, you knows. I know, I know.

01:24:21

Because you don't only going to that foundation.

01:24:22

We're now Fast forward.

01:24:25

That's 2D up to right?

01:24:28

Have you ever been swallowed up? That's what he doing. He said that y'all, I'm not.

01:24:33

I'm just just stop it though.

01:24:46

You. Yeah, you.

01:24:48

I thought you really wanted to answer like.

01:24:49

No, it's ridiculous. Goodness.

01:24:53

Gracious that TD's have to take that.

01:24:58

You. You're done. You're finish.

01:25:01

Ohh man.

01:25:02

Yeah. There. And so there are more sections I you know, there's this, this documentary is 4 hours, four hours. They started to highlight the preaching methodology, the whooping they, they, they they focused on the methodology of preaching never the content because if that's black the whooping.

01:25:19

Right.

01:25:21

It's black. They made it their own thing.

01:25:23

Meanwhile, the content is what matters. That's what that Pastor highlight in the beginning, he took the methodology and he's doing the whooping, but his content is not Black church content. It's biblical content. It's gospel centered content, it's shepherding content. He has a shepherd's heart. If he's genuine, what he's saying.

01:25:41

If it's genuine what he's saying, and so going back to that enemy thing you have women demanding the right to do these things because they see the pulpit as a place of power and that's it.

01:25:56

That, that's it. They see the pulpit as a place of power.

01:26:01

That's just like critical race theory, is it not?

01:26:05

Diane, all of that stuff, all of that.

01:26:09

Stuff. That's how you got children up.

01:26:10

There, you know. Yeah, that's right. And that's all it is. It's shallow, it's empty. It's rendered powerless, ironically. So you can be up in that pulpit and you'd be powerless, man.

01:26:25

You know. Ohh man, I wish. I wish I could find it.

01:26:29

There is a quote by Charles Spurgeon that would probably get him assassinated if he were to say it today.

01:26:36

But I know that he starts the quote by saying.

01:26:39

Women are best when they're silent.

01:26:47

Because everything's about feelings today. Now, but and what he's what he's highlighting is not a woman's existence he's talking about in the context of worship.

01:26:58

In the context of solitude to Christ, because then he highlights Peters mother-in-law, how Peter served the Lord and is in our scriptures, that we read about and will read about forever until the Lord returns. Yet her role will be demeaned.

01:27:18

Because she's not in front of everybody.

01:27:21

But she was healed.

01:27:23

And the first thing she thought to do was serve the Lord.

01:27:28

That's what she wanted to do.

01:27:31

And what he's highlighting is that these women will find the value in being upfront and being able to talk whenever they want.

01:27:41

Are the women who caused the most damage when they talk?

01:27:48

And it's not exclusive to women. No, it's not exclusive to women, because this whole documentary and what we're talking about is episode involves poor leadership and stupid talking done by men right at the hands of men. Right. OK, we're going to be wrapping up. We're going to be wrapping up.

01:28:09

Another aspect of the Black Churches gospel music. We've talked about the fruitlessness of gospel music, not music with the gospel, but the quote UN quote gospel music that we've always talked about. The question of, like, why?

01:28:20

How could BT?

01:28:22

Have gospel stuff right? How to have a gospel? What's a dove? That's called dove. Whatever.

01:28:28

Was all.

01:28:29

I don't know.

01:28:29

But they have gospel stuff. BET yeah, like, is this the same show that shows black women funding?

01:28:33

They the same network just showed up. Was it Sunday best?

01:28:38

Yeah, it at 2:00 AM. It shows black women being objectified by men in the most grotesque way. That's at 2:00 AM. But then throughout the day, they're just closed, semi clothed and being objectified by men. Or if they're not objectified by men, they are the artist, flaunting about how they allow themselves to be.

01:28:58

The five by mid right this is BT that, that and they do a gospel thing well, how could they ever do that? Well because.

01:29:06

It's not about.

01:29:06

Christ, it's not about death and repentance and rebirth and Christ.

01:29:13

It's about black culture, man.

01:29:16

It's the black church.

01:29:19

A synagogue of Satan.

01:29:28

Yeah. So there was, there was a segment in there, there was a segment in the documentary that talked about how.

01:29:36

They're still waiting for women to be accepted as preachers. That's an issue in the Black Church. Women are still being talked down regarding preaching and being pastors, and you know, it was paired up with that thing that that issue in.

01:29:50

The black church.

01:29:52

The fact that we're still wrestling with whether or not gay marriage should be recognized.

01:30:04

Yeah. Yeah. That that's. Uh, that's the black church.

01:30:09

And even if you can't be, and what's happened, which is interesting, what's happened is.

01:30:13

People, some people weren't gifted as pastors.

01:30:16

But they still need to find a way to be in the limelight. Yeah, and said that through music. And now you Fast forward today. So you you talk about like William Murphy, Vashawn Mitchell. Kirk Franklin, you know, I mean, they're not, you know, William Murphy wasn't always a pastor, but he ended up being some Bishop of his own church. And he does music. Right. So he's a musician.

01:30:36

TD Jakes you know, musician, these are all, you know, musicians, but now.

01:30:41

I think Tim Jakes is a musician.

01:30:44

Is he a musician? I mean, he did the women vow out loose things.

01:30:46

I think you play. I think you play.

01:30:48

OK. But.

01:30:51

He used music to promote his church. Ultimately. Yeah. And so now you Fast forward today to 2024. You got even people who aren't gifted as pastors. They got the laptop up and they live so that you can see them play music and that's, you know, that's like a that's an interesting aspect of the Black Church as well. See this?

01:31:11

Look at me. But when it comes to.

01:31:12

Music. Or when it comes to church in general, they have to be in a position they have to have a position. That position has to be paid and they have to be seen. And I mean there is no.

01:31:23

Band pit. Yeah, they're just like, out of sight. And you just play it like a like a, like an orchestra. Yeah. You ever been to, like, a?

01:31:29

What's that thing called Cirque du Soleil?

01:31:31

Yeah. And the musicians are out of sight. That could never be.

01:31:33

On the site, you're not there to see them. Never. No, never. But nobody would take that role.

01:31:34

In a blight.

01:31:35

1st that could.

01:31:36

Be in.

01:31:36

A black church, they.

01:31:37

They they'd be a distraction and search this away and and they're a distraction in.

01:31:41

The black church.

01:31:41

In the Black Church because they want people to hear their runs, they want people to see their rifts. You know, all that stuff because it's not about Christ and and it shouldn't be about Christ with those musicians, because those they are Christians anyway, not even in a black church context, right? Like, they don't even talk to the Black church stuff.

01:31:59

You show up with a bag full of.

01:32:00

Weed. Yeah. And their skills. Yeah. And everybody knows it. Everybody knows it. A couple of things I want to read before we close.

01:32:10

In 2022, there was a new study showing the lack of biblical worldview among American pastors.

01:32:17

A new nationwide survey of Americas Christian pastors shows that a majority of pastors lack a biblical worldview. In fact, just slightly more than 1/3 possess of the local worldview, and the majority, 62%, hold a hybrid worldview known as syncretism.

01:32:35

Skipping down quote, a person's worldview primarily developed before the age of 13, then goes through a period of refinement during their teens and 20s. Therefore, from a worldview development perspective, a Church's most important ministers are the children's pastor and the youth pastor. Barna said. Discovering that seven out of every eight of those pastors lack of.

01:32:54

Biblical worldview helps to.

01:32:55

Explain why so.

01:32:56

Few among the nations youngest generations are developing our heart and mind for biblical principles and ways of life, and why our society seems to have run wild over the last decade, Barna said now.

01:33:12

Where am I?

01:33:14

I'm on the wrong thing here.

01:33:16

What was Jamal talking about?

01:33:20

He was saying he was talking to you in the bedroom. Jamal Bryant. He was talking to the young adults used to. He was.

01:33:23

Which video? Ohh.

01:33:25

Talking to the young adults, yeah.

01:33:26

No, it was 2 videos. Where did you put?

01:33:27

I mean, but he never mention young adults, and both of them, I'm saying.

01:33:30

When he was talking to the young adults.

01:33:32

He he was talking about. He was talking to the young adults with the woman. Yeah. And. And he's saying he had animals and he's talking about, you know, whatever he's he's shepherding the young.

01:33:34

Ohh alright.

01:33:41

People, right, right.

01:33:43

He doesn't have a biblical worldview. No, yet he's shepherding them.

01:33:50

Another one. And he's. I mean, that's just the head pastor of the church. Yeah, a very big church. And other people below them that are just going to be.

01:33:55

Very good search.

01:33:59

Even less informed than he is.

01:34:02

There's an article in religion dispatches called Gay Black Church and interview with Bishop Yvette Flunder.

01:34:09

It says it's Sunday afternoon in the sanctuary of City of Refugee Linoleum Floored Auditorium with folding chairs at a particularly sketchy downtown San Francisco intersection. Evette Flunder, founding pastor, is preaching at the podium a fine wooden pedestal that gives alter a hint of the traditional quote, UN quote.

01:34:29

Church. It was her grandfather's pulpit. And now she's raising the roof amid shouts from the organization. Say it, Bishop. Tell it.

01:34:39

The article goes on quote. Possessing a world class gospel voice, she punctuates her preaching with spontaneous singing as she preaches about what it means to be a radically inclusive congregation. To be a church for everyone.

01:34:56

It's the kind of thing you might not notice right away. Just another black church in a down and out urban neighborhood. But then you look to your left at the gangly transgender woman with tattoos or at the band up the stage with a journal who looks like the singer Nona Hendricks or at the choir director and shiny satin.

01:35:15

And begins to down.

01:35:16

You radically inclusive, not just words.

01:35:25

Church. What church is that? They said it it it was Yvette Flinders Church city of Refuge, City of refuge.

01:35:34

Yeah, but where is that?

01:35:36

I know that name.

01:35:37

City of Refuge, San Francisco.

01:35:40

OK, maybe I know. Yeah. San Francisco, that's black church.

01:35:48

That's Black Church, last one.

01:35:55

NPR did an article called Blacks, Gays in the church a complex relationship.

01:36:02

Fairly or not, African Americans have become the public face of resistance to same sex marriage owing to their religious beliefs and the outspoken opposition of many black pastors. Yet the presence of gays and lesbians and black churches is common, and the fact that they often hold leadership positions in their congregations is the worst kept secret in Black America.

01:36:24

While many black pastors condemn gays and lesbians from the pulpit, the choir laws behind them often are filled with gay singers and musicians. Some male pastors themselves have been entangled in scandals involving alleged affairs with men. So what I want to highlight from that article is that Once Upon a time.

01:36:44

What year was that article?

01:36:49

2012 see that? Umm 2012 there now? Yeah. See, Obama wasn't done his work by 2012. He has four more years, right?

01:37:00

Yeah, you had four more years.

01:37:00

Right. Wow.

01:37:03

That's that's a shift. So because the Black church is.

01:37:08

Black Christian nationalism.

01:37:10

And their tide changes with the political tide, right? Obama changes. Why tide?

01:37:15

His politicians got to be in the black.

01:37:17

They have to be in the Black Church because they love their little dummies, right? That they go in and pander to and they get them to do their bidding. Hey, we need you to kill more of your children. I'm going to come in your church and I'm going to hope, lie and talk. Black Church talk so you can keep killing your children. Make sure women.

01:37:36

You aren't marrying your men. We'll keep giving you our money and make sure men that you continue to emasculate yourselves by dressing in that sad nonsense. Whatever.

01:37:47

That article is talking about.

01:37:48

Right.

01:37:51

It changes with the tide, and so that article was addressing the fact that a part of black culture, it wasn't good for men to act like women.

01:38:00

That wasn't a part of black culture yet.

01:38:02

No, that's what we talked about that a couple.

01:38:05

A few episodes ago about how.

01:38:10

Like homosexuality in the black community.

01:38:12

Yes, taboos.

01:38:13

Still stigmatized.

01:38:14

Yeah, yeah, just like now. Just like, just like Margaret Sanger. Deal with abortion. They come to black religious leaders. Right. Cowards. Cowards.

01:38:16

Now it's.

01:38:17

Specifically in church.

01:38:29

And they tell them to shepherd their people into lies, and they do it and they obey, master.

01:38:35

It made ironic.

01:38:37

They still want a plantation, and here we are still talking about slavery.

01:38:43

In the triumph of it, or I guess they're they're even. They're talking about that we still are enslaved and oppression.

01:38:50

Yeah, man, it's just so angering. It really, is it really is OK. I'm done. But this is the way we're going to finish.

01:38:58

I'm going to finish so that you guys are fully convinced that the Black Church is not about black people.

01:39:06

It's about idolatry.

01:39:10

The enemy is Satan, and he's a liar.

01:39:14

Let God be true in every man, a liar.

01:39:17

Let God be true in every man, a liar.

01:39:20

So the Black Church is just another one of the Satan schemes. That's all it is.

01:39:25

That, that's all. That's all it is.

01:39:28

Be encouraged because the church will prevail.

01:39:33

And it's fighting against it, even by Christians who.

01:39:37

Happen to be black.

01:39:39

And so there were a number of segments I wanted to end this with, but I want to end it with.

01:39:44

SM Lockridge.

01:39:47

Shadrack meshach. Lockridge. Yeah. You know that's an old name. The thing is, it's an old name.

01:39:57

But he's a black man.

01:40:00

He's a pastor.

01:40:03

He's a preacher.

01:40:04

But more importantly, because of who he says Christ is, he is our brother.

01:40:11

No matter what skin color you're on.

01:40:14

His little brother.

01:40:16

So that's what I want to end this segment with.

01:40:21

UM.

01:40:24

That's it. I think we'll we'll sign off and then I'm. I think I'm just going to end with him. OK. So thank you guys for sticking with us in this and keep.

01:40:36

Just tell the truth.

01:40:38

Share the gospel. Be unashamed of the gospel, and thank you guys for tuning in to this episode of Black and Blur. We are guaranteed to hear one of two things, our humble.

01:40:46

Opinion all the facts horrendous.

01:40:53

Hallelujah the Lord God omnipotent reign and add his name to his name and his name. Every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the father.

01:41:11

Every knee.

01:41:13

The young knee ever knee the only ever knee the white knee ever knee. The black knee. Ever.

01:41:21

Wounded knee. Every knee is gonna bite.

01:41:25

And every time.

01:41:26

Don't answer.

01:41:28

That Jesus Christ is Lord, you know, many say I've got a lot of living to do. I'll accept him as savior and I'll acknowledge him as Lord. But I've got a lot of living to do. You don't really live until you come to him.

01:41:47

Who said I am come that you might have life and that you might have it more abundantly and then some. I hear praying, Lord, when I must go somewhere and crawl up in a dying bed and learn how to die.

01:42:05

Brother, who told you?

01:42:06

You were going anywhere else.

01:42:09

Who told you you were going to have the strength of the time to crawl up in the dining bed and who told you you had to learn how to die? You learn how to live and as you live so you die. But I'm not going to wait because borderline.

01:42:24

Salvation is better than being lost, but that's too dangerous to risk. That's the reason the Prophet said seek ye the Lord while.

01:42:31

He may be.

01:42:32

Found call on him while he's near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and he will have mercy to our God, for he will abundantly upon.

01:42:42

Not gonna wait.

01:42:44

I acknowledge him as my Lord. Now. The Lord is love and his love is stronger than seeing. It's deeper than sorrow, and it's mightier than death. The Lord is my light. The Lord is my strength. The Lord is my salvation. The Lord is my rock.

01:43:04

The Lord is my fortress. The Lord is my deliverer. The Lord is my high tower. The Lord is my shield and my buckler. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want you know, this whole world is a weird and this old world we always wanting something.

01:43:23

A man will break his health down trying to get well.

01:43:28

And then they'll turn around, spend as well trying to get his health back. If it isn't one thing, it's another from the rocking in the cradle to the folding in the Gray. Something is always running out.

01:43:41

If your bank account gets loaded, then your blood pressure gets high.

01:43:47

If you've got money, your health breaks down. If you've got a job, your eyesight gets dim. If you've got food on your table, your faith gets weak. If it's not your enemy, it's bothering you. It's your so-called friends. If it's not, your can't vote, mooching off of you, it's your church vote. And while you're building up over here, it's falling apart over there.

01:44:05

But the Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. The little girl was asked to recite this verse and she said the Lord is my shepherd. And that's all I want.

01:44:17

They said she was wrong. I said she's right.

01:44:21

The Lord is my shepherd, and that's all I want. I shall not want for rest.

01:44:27

For he maketh me to lie.

01:44:29

Down in green pastures.

01:44:31

I shall not want for refreshment.

01:44:33

For he leaves me beside the still waters.

01:44:36

I shall not want for forgiveness for he restoreth my son. I shall not want for guidance.

01:44:42

For he leadeth me in paths of righteousness for his namesake. I shall not want for companionship. For yeah. Do I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. I will fear no evil. For thou art with me. I shall not go for comfort for thy rod and thy staff. They comfort me. I shall not want for sustenance.

01:45:02

Provision for thou prepares the table before me in the presence of my enemies. I shall not want for joy.

01:45:10

For thou notice my head with oil, my cup run it over, I shall not want for anything in this life, for goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall not want for anything in the life to come far dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

01:45:30

Didn't say I camper tent or Tabernacle, but I'll dwell.

01:45:35

In the House of the Lord Feather, our grill in a land where we'll never grow, we'll grill out there where the silence of eternity is interpreted by love. I'll grill in the sunkiss regions of an unclouded day well in a city that hath foundation, whose building.

01:45:54

Bakers God well, in the House of the Lord Forever, Jesus Christ is Lord.